Help I don't want to be a programmer anymore • Hacker News Board

Re: Help I don't want to be a programmer anymore

#41

Post by omni » Thu, Feb 07, 2013, 2:39 PM UTC

jug6ernaut wrote: post #28

mmcconnell1618 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doctors have to go to medical school and then have a residency and the AMA closely controls the total supply of physicians. Lawyers have to go to an accredited school and then pass the bar (in some states the school part is optional). A computer science degree is the closest thing the tribe of programmers has to a professional certification. There are some organizations that have attempted to bring the tribe together…

Those licenses are not to protect the Doctors/Lawyers, they are to protect their clients. Having such a system for programmers would make no since and would make the situation much worse. A college degree means a lot but you can be a very good/success programmer without one. I would NEVER go to a doctor/lawyer who did not have the correct credentials to practice. As such you "practice" medicine and you "practice" law…

> Those licenses are not to protect the Doctors/Lawyers, they are to protect their clients.

It goes both ways, like an if-by-whiskey.

If by licenses you mean those draconic practices by which some exclusive guild is allowed to tell me which professions I am allowed to practice in order to keep their supply low and their prices high, then I am against them.

However, if by licenses you mean the protective mechanism by which government prevents uneducated hacks from performing open heart surgery on citizens, then I am for them.

Re: Help I don't want to be a programmer anymore

#42

Post by jordan_clark » Thu, Feb 07, 2013, 2:39 PM UTC

darkxanthos wrote: post #39

darkxanthos wrote: post #33

As a programmer, I don't understand the sentiment in some of these comments. When you're a builder, your job is to control costs (short and long term) while building as rapidly as possible. The returns on cost savings are bounded. The returns on driving new products has a very high upper bound, if any. Now some companies hire programmers to be included in that profit driven area of the business, I prefer to work at t…

I forgot to add, this is also the reason I've shifted towards "data science". Still get to code but I also add immensely more value to the business as I experiment to grow profits.

Good point. Everyone wants to be respected and wants to feel like they're able to contribute to the company moving forward.

Re: Help I don't want to be a programmer anymore

#43

Post by paganel » Thu, Feb 07, 2013, 2:41 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #36

sid6376 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we often easily attribute these problems to the "management" types but do start-ups with founders as programmers treat other programmers any better?

That is a good question. I've seen it go both ways. Part of being a defeated tribe is that you have defectors: young programmers who are tapped for management and change colors. Those are the worst, because they tend to view their older colleagues who are "still programming" as losers and it shows. It may not be politically correct, but I've found the term "Uncle Tom Engineer" to be useful in some cases. On the other…

> but the paternalistic management nonsense.

Just a couple of days ago I barely managed not to answer to one of my superiors' emails with something along the lines of "hey, let's quit with this paternalistic BS, it doesn't really matter who's saying what around the office or at what hour people come in at the office, it only matters if we're doing our job properly which means bringing more money in compared to what goes out". I then remembered than I'm not a manager, but only a programmer, and that I shouldn't worry about this sort of stuff.

Re: Help I don't want to be a programmer anymore

#44

Post by onemorepassword » Thu, Feb 07, 2013, 2:43 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #3

I like programming a lot. If I'm away from it for more than a couple weeks, I start to miss it. The software industry deserves to choke on a dick and die, however. Fuck bad code, micromanagers, dopey "startups" that expect 14-hour days on the assumption that 0.0x equity slices represent real "ownership", closed allocation, and regimes in which programmers don't choose their tools. All of that can go to hell. As softw…

Defeated tribe? How about a tribe that surrendered without a fight?

Okay, so maybe, despite a still ongoing shortage, it's not a good time to stand up and fight in the middle of a crisis, but before that, when people who could barely operate a keyboard got hired as programmers, very few did or said anything either. Except maybe quietly leave, only to find out things weren't much better elsewhere.

Also, I find that very few programmers (and HN is not particularly representative of this profession) are willing to take responsibility for the result. Because that's the price if you want to get rid of micromanagement, pick your own tools, work decent hours etc.: be 100% accountable for getting a result that ships and makes clients/users/investors happy.

If you want to take control of "this game", you have to take control of the entire product/service, not just the code.

You probably are one of those who are willing to do that, but the vast majority of those who also call themselves "programmers" aren't.

Re: Help I don't want to be a programmer anymore

#45

Post by arethuza » Thu, Feb 07, 2013, 2:45 PM UTC

jug6ernaut wrote: post #28

mmcconnell1618 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doctors have to go to medical school and then have a residency and the AMA closely controls the total supply of physicians. Lawyers have to go to an accredited school and then pass the bar (in some states the school part is optional). A computer science degree is the closest thing the tribe of programmers has to a professional certification. There are some organizations that have attempted to bring the tribe together…

Those licenses are not to protect the Doctors/Lawyers, they are to protect their clients. Having such a system for programmers would make no since and would make the situation much worse. A college degree means a lot but you can be a very good/success programmer without one. I would NEVER go to a doctor/lawyer who did not have the correct credentials to practice. As such you "practice" medicine and you "practice" law…

Also worth noting that, at least in some places, lawyers share quite a lot of liability for their work - direct personal liability or as part of a partnership (and limited liability partnerships might not protect you as much as you would think).

If a lawyer screws up badly enough then they can have their credentials taken away and they can't do their job anymore - that's arguably the main difference between a professional and an academic qualification.

Re: Help I don't want to be a programmer anymore

#46

Post by nollidge » Thu, Feb 07, 2013, 2:45 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #3

I like programming a lot. If I'm away from it for more than a couple weeks, I start to miss it. The software industry deserves to choke on a dick and die, however. Fuck bad code, micromanagers, dopey "startups" that expect 14-hour days on the assumption that 0.0x equity slices represent real "ownership", closed allocation, and regimes in which programmers don't choose their tools. All of that can go to hell. As softw…

Upvoted because even though I hate cynicism, it just hits me from time to time. I just am not motivated by mentoring or entering timesheets or working on projects I give no fucks about or being coerced into giving time estimates for problems I don't even understand yet.

And all of that baggage too often outweighs the real joy I get from building things in the unlimited universe of the binary machine. I miss feeling like an inventor, like I've got infinite Lego blocks and a vast, empty dining room table (that Mom doesn't need for a couple days).

Instead, I get just the microjoys of building a new web page from scratch with nice messages and useful validation, or a really well-normalized set of tables, or gosh, if I'm lucky, a really reusable, self-documenting library which I've been allowed to write The Right Way.

I'd love to work at a Valve or a Github, where programmers work on whatever they want, but how many of those are there? And I'd love to work for myself, except for the overhead of busywork that goes along with it.

Re: Help I don't want to be a programmer anymore

#47

Post by michaelochurch » Thu, Feb 07, 2013, 2:46 PM UTC

mmcconnell1618 wrote: post #9

michaelochurch wrote: post #3

I like programming a lot. If I'm away from it for more than a couple weeks, I start to miss it. The software industry deserves to choke on a dick and die, however. Fuck bad code, micromanagers, dopey "startups" that expect 14-hour days on the assumption that 0.0x equity slices represent real "ownership", closed allocation, and regimes in which programmers don't choose their tools. All of that can go to hell. As softw…

Doctors have to go to medical school and then have a residency and the AMA closely controls the total supply of physicians. Lawyers have to go to an accredited school and then pass the bar (in some states the school part is optional). A computer science degree is the closest thing the tribe of programmers has to a professional certification. There are some organizations that have attempted to bring the tribe together…

Professionalization of programming is a very hard thing to get right, but I agree.

http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/11/18/programmers-d...

What we need is a sort of postmodern professional structure. We can't keep people out of programming itself. Everyone should be exposed to the concepts. However, we need to inject the respect accorded a profession into software development.

Re: Help I don't want to be a programmer anymore

#48

Post by henrik_w » Thu, Feb 07, 2013, 2:46 PM UTC

lss456 wrote: post #23

frozenport wrote: post #12

I like ______________________, but have found that I’m not very good at it professionally, should I get an MBA? I think this is why MBAs are increasingly seen as worthless

As a programmer who has gone the MBA route (will be done in the Fall), I have to say it's been positive for me. Not because I can point to it on my resume and say "look what I have!" or "look what I'm getting!", it's been positive for the following reasons: a) It's increased my ability to communicate clearly in small and large groups. b) It's given me great context regarding where IT and programming stand in the over…

Exactly. If you love what you do, you have a much better chance of being great at it. So switch if you don't feel programming is for you.

Programming experience is still valuable, even if you switch. In my experience, it will make you much better at many related roles in a SW companies, such as project manager, product manager or business analyst, since you'll know what it takes to produce the SW (what's hard, what's easy etc).

Personally, I've been programming for over 20 years (always at companies whose main product is SW), and I still love it: http://henrikwarne.com/2012/06/02/why-i-love-coding/

Re: Help I don't want to be a programmer anymore

#49

Post by Swannie » Thu, Feb 07, 2013, 2:48 PM UTC

mac1175 wrote: post #19

michaelochurch wrote: post #3

I like programming a lot. If I'm away from it for more than a couple weeks, I start to miss it. The software industry deserves to choke on a dick and die, however. Fuck bad code, micromanagers, dopey "startups" that expect 14-hour days on the assumption that 0.0x equity slices represent real "ownership", closed allocation, and regimes in which programmers don't choose their tools. All of that can go to hell. As softw…

Thank you for this. I feel the same exact way. Every needs programmers but won't respect them. That has been by sentiment at many places I have worked at. At my job, the CTO got on the cover of a magazine that involved tech in government for a mobile app I was hired to design an implement for. The best part is that he had no real hand in the design or implementation of the app nor ever wrote a single line of code in…

Lets think of a restaurant... Who do you give the credit to for a great meal? Who gets the tip?

The person who set up the restaurant? The person who created the menu? The person who sourced the raw ingredients? The person who prepared the raw ingredients into components of a dish? The person who plated up your food? The person who oversaw the preparation in the kitchen? The person who brought the food to your table? The person who took your order?

In the USA, and many other countries, you tip the table staff. Sometimes the kitchen staff get a cut, but generally, they just get paid to execute on the owner's & head chef's vision. If the restaurant won an award, would it go to the line chef who prepared the dish that the reviewer/judge ate? Hell no.

It's not a programmer issue. Credit is about who had the vision and took the risk. The people other than the founders that get the credit are usually the sales staff. Very occasionally the customer is impressed and wants to credit the head of the delivery team, but not often... leaving a tiny bit of credit to be dished out between everyone else.

Re: Help I don't want to be a programmer anymore

#50

Post by pivotal » Thu, Feb 07, 2013, 2:48 PM UTC

eksith wrote: post #29

It's called a premature midlife crisis (usually happens right before or at age 30). Some people get over it by dumping their life experience before that point completely while others, like myself, slowly wean off programming onto something else. A friend I've known since high school gave up a very lucrative career as a managing consultant to become... a farmer. Yup, he plants stuff and sells them at a bi-weekly marke…

I think I may be starting to feel this as well. I'm 27 and have been feeling resistant to staying a programmer. My father in law has been showing me the ropes of being handy - woodworking, wiring electric, etc. I've been brewing my own beer occasionally baking bread and some days it just seems like doing anything with my hands instead of sitting at a desk all day would make me feel much more alive.

Then again, maybe not. I've gone through this with programming before and I usually swing back around to enjoying it.

It also helps that the pay is great for something that a lot of days I think I would do for free.