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Why Aaron died

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Re: Why Aaron died

#71

Post by rdouble »

anigbrowl wrote: post #63
thaumaturgy wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will muster every ounce of decorum I can manage in responding to some random person's rebuttal to a post written by someone who actually knew and lived with Aaron (seriously, what are you thinking?!), and simply retort: "That program crashed because it halted. It was the proximate cause of its own crash so to speak. Are there other factors without which it wouldn't have crashed? Indeed, there are an infinite number…

I certainly wouldn't presume to tell someone close to the situation what the cause was, but that doesn't mean I uncritically accept their view. Having a history of depression and having made a couple of suicide attempts in the (now-distant) past, here are some things that come to mind while reading her argument that Aaronsw didn't exhibit the typical clinical markers of depression: a) having a list of symptoms doesn'…

His documented behavior certainly suggested bipolar or BPD, both of which unfortunately do have a high rate of suicide.

Re: Why Aaron died

#72

Post by rayiner »

gsharm wrote: post #65
rayiner wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we design cars so that not a single person ever dies? Do we design medicine so a single person never dies? You can't design a realistic justice system that doesn't have unfair outcomes sometimes any more than you can design a test for cancer that never has false positives. Outside this particularly sympathetic context, I'd say people want their justice system to be fairly neutral and not swayed by the specifics of…

Any system - especially a justice system - unable to take into account peoples' circumstances is not only wasteful, but dangerous. Neutrality does not transcend doing the right thing. Justice isn't a product that is packaged and sold, it is a service, rendered on a case-by-case basis. It is done that way so that the context can be understood sufficiently well in each case. In this case it either wasn't, or they simpl…

I don't have an agenda, and I don't think the system is fine. I do, however, think a lot of people are being grandiose in condemning Carmen Ortiz. I'm an engineer at heart, and we're a conservative breed, preoccupied with tradeoffs and immune to idealistic tropes. I don't think you can get what you want: a justice system that is compassionate and sensitive to the "good guys" and harsh with the "bad guys" and also considers every case meticulously on a case by case basis while also not costing a fortune to run.

Re: Why Aaron died

#73

Post by cpher »

ErrantX wrote: post #38
thaumaturgy wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will muster every ounce of decorum I can manage in responding to some random person's rebuttal to a post written by someone who actually knew and lived with Aaron (seriously, what are you thinking?!), and simply retort: "That program crashed because it halted. It was the proximate cause of its own crash so to speak. Are there other factors without which it wouldn't have crashed? Indeed, there are an infinite number…

Yes. But. (and this post doesn't intend to argue Aaron was depressed, just thinks about the premise that he might have been) As someone who suffers a lot with depression, it is quite possible to be depressed and for no one close to you to notice . We can be damn good at hiding it, especially with practice, especially with people we know well. Some time ago I was living with my partner and she had no clue I had been d…

Thanks for these thoughts. It makes me wonder about Jody Sherman. I didn't know the man, yet every thing I've read about him sounds like he would be amazing to be around--and a great friend. He, maybe more so than Aaron, had even more to look forward to (i.e. no federal lawsuit, etc). And yet, Jody chose the same end. So sad.

Re: Why Aaron died

#74

Post by anigbrowl »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #70
anigbrowl wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I certainly wouldn't presume to tell someone close to the situation what the cause was, but that doesn't mean I uncritically accept their view. Having a history of depression and having made a couple of suicide attempts in the (now-distant) past, here are some things that come to mind while reading her argument that Aaronsw didn't exhibit the typical clinical markers of depression: a) having a list of symptoms doesn'…

Absolutely, on all points. If anyone thinks I'm arguing that prosecution leads to suicide (even aggressive prosecution), or that Ortiz or anyone in her office is solely responsible for his suicide, then I apologize: that wasn't my intent. I do think that there are some fundamental questions about the circumstances though: - Was the prosecution disproportionate to the crime? (I think it was; I'd be interested to hear…

We're basically on the same page and I agree that there are a lot of questions worth considering; as someone that was rather dismissive of aaronsw's course of action in the first place, I've certainly been thinking about how I expressed those views, even though my views have not changed much since.

The only thing I'd add for consideration here is that it's not really the prosecution's job to worry about a defendant's mental state; as I understand it, it's up to the defense team to bring that sort of issue to the attention of the court (ie the judge). Not to do so, but then to bring the matter up in negotiation, looks an awful lot like an attempt at manipulation instead of a sincere concern. The whole idea of the court as a neutral finder-of-fact is to provide defendants with an unbiased ear for such issues so that they're not dependent on the good will of prosecutors.

Re: Why Aaron died

#75

Post by tptacek »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #56
rayiner wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we design cars so that not a single person ever dies? Do we design medicine so a single person never dies? You can't design a realistic justice system that doesn't have unfair outcomes sometimes any more than you can design a test for cancer that never has false positives. Outside this particularly sympathetic context, I'd say people want their justice system to be fairly neutral and not swayed by the specifics of…

When people die in car accidents, "we" investigate why they died and try to figure out how to build better cars in the future. I'm alive today thanks to that process. That's a hell of a lot more than Carmen Ortiz has decided to do. You are defending your profession at the expense of your humanity. I can not think of any more powerful way to state my criticism of your comments here.

His profession? He's not a prosecutor. He's not a criminal attorney. Is he even a litigator?

Do I get to inveigh against all software developers every time armed drone C&C software plays a role in killing a civilian somewhere?

Re: Why Aaron died

#76

Post by tptacek »

wglb wrote: post #33
rayiner wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Evaluating whether Ortiz is culpable according to our common morality does not require understanding the specifics of his situation. For any given event, there are an infinite number of causes without which that even would not have happened or would not have happened in that way. Ortiz's prosecution was certainly one of those causes. But it was obviously not the only one, because if it were then that would mean that…

Except that this was the second suicide of someone under prosecution by this office.

It is not reasonable to presume that people are likely to commit suicide over the threat of a 6 month prison sentence. You know that I think the Heymann prosecution was way out of line, but your argument here is a caricature.

Re: Why Aaron died

#77

Post by tptacek »

knowtheory wrote: post #22
rayiner wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did it occur to you that the facts with which you are acquainted are not the relevant ones? Indeed, if you're talking about laying the blame for Aaron's suicide on the feet of Carmen Ortiz, isn't it patently ridiculous to consider the intimate facts of his situation relevant? Are we now to charge prosecutors with being sensitive to the details of the personal lives of the people which they prosecute?

Dude, you're being that guy . Don't be that guy . Why shouldn't a prosecutor consider the personal circumstance of the accused? Certainly this is done in a variety of ways in the law, the decision as to whether a crime has been committed, the decision as to whether to charge an individual, what charges are brought against that individual. Particularly in the case where prosecutors have wide discretion, such as in the…

"That guy" appears to mean that because Bill Lederer knows Aaron's parents not to have been depressed, and because Aaron's girlfriend believed him not to have been depressed, it is unreasonable to question whether someone who committed suicide over a 6 month prison term was depressed.

Re: Why Aaron died

#78

Post by thaumaturgy »

anigbrowl wrote: post #74
thaumaturgy wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely, on all points. If anyone thinks I'm arguing that prosecution leads to suicide (even aggressive prosecution), or that Ortiz or anyone in her office is solely responsible for his suicide, then I apologize: that wasn't my intent. I do think that there are some fundamental questions about the circumstances though: - Was the prosecution disproportionate to the crime? (I think it was; I'd be interested to hear…

We're basically on the same page and I agree that there are a lot of questions worth considering; as someone that was rather dismissive of aaronsw's course of action in the first place, I've certainly been thinking about how I expressed those views, even though my views have not changed much since. The only thing I'd add for consideration here is that it's not really the prosecution's job to worry about a defendant's…

Yeah. Just to be clear, I don't think prosecutors should have to wring their hands and back away from plea bargaining every time any defendant claims emotional distress. I do think there should be a framework for evaluating claims of defendants being at risk for self-harm and then selecting appropriate courses of action; in Aaron's case I think that prior evidence (e.g. content from his blog) as well as the nature of his crime should have been suitable grounds for an adjusted plea bargain under this hypothetical framework.

Courts are messy affairs; there's still a lot we don't know, like the disposition of the judge, so I can accept that the defense should have brought that to the court, but would rebut that we don't know that they didn't, or that they weren't able to for some reason. Either way, I don't think that completely exonerates the prosecutor's office in this case.

Thanks for the calm, reasoned discussion.

Re: Why Aaron died

#79

Post by teeja »

droope wrote: post #29

I just want to say six words to people saying aaron commited suicide: "Make it look like an accident." I, for one, am deeply sad that he is gone, and wish he wasn't. Being considerate to people who feel this way might pay off, stop being such assholes.

According to the medical examiner, in 1991 journalist Danny Casolaro killed himself too while investigating Inslaw. No one in his family believed it. So when someone with no authority asserts "he killed himself", there's no call to dignify such a foolish assertion with a response.

Re: Why Aaron died

#80

Post by thaumaturgy »

tptacek wrote: post #75
thaumaturgy wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people die in car accidents, "we" investigate why they died and try to figure out how to build better cars in the future. I'm alive today thanks to that process. That's a hell of a lot more than Carmen Ortiz has decided to do. You are defending your profession at the expense of your humanity. I can not think of any more powerful way to state my criticism of your comments here.

His profession? He's not a prosecutor. He's not a criminal attorney. Is he even a litigator? Do I get to inveigh against all software developers every time armed drone C&C software plays a role in killing a civilian somewhere?

Sigh. No, but if someone were to criticize a particular group of software developers for writing some armed drone C&C software that had a completely disproportionate effect on its target, and you rushed to defend the software developers using a really thin argument, then I don't think there's anything wrong with pointing out that your association with software developers might be making you less than impartial.

Then of course you could counter-argue that the person doing the criticizing was related to some of the people that were killed, and therefore they might not be impartial either, even though I never said (nor would have suggested) otherwise, and even though that does nothing to make you look less prejudiced.

And then the whole stupid thing could continue to spiral out of control until someone else suddenly showed up late to the argument and brought with them some absurd analogy that requires some serious stretching to be at all applicable to the discussion at hand...

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