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Speaking up

sazzy.co.uk

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Re: Speaking up

#101

Post by pekk »

afarrell wrote: post #33
mattdeboard wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously. I roll my eyes at some of the white-knighting that goes when a woman is slighted on the Internet but holy crap I get nervous for my girlfriend who's a talented programmer and about to graduate with a CS degree. Is this kind of bullshit in store for her? Sheesh.

Are you sure you aren't confusing "white knight" for "person who doesn't appreciate seeing other people treated like shit"? I originally thought that phrase meant something like "Claiming to represent someone's position or speak for them when they can very well speak for themselves." But assuming that http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/white-knight is a credible source, that phrase actually refers to dudes who argue again…

There ARE men who jump on others in a showy way for strictly imagined offenses against women. Sometimes (as in perhaps most cases of men fighting in public) the motivation IS at least partly sexual, e.g. to seem attractive, or at least part of an anachronistic image of the chivalrous savior. But the sexual part isn't defining.

This doesn't mean that it is wrong to argue against misogyny.

It just points to a real phenomenon among men, where they are trying to look like they are calling out an asshole when what is really going on is logically much more similar to acting holy in a bar fight over a woman.

If you think observing actual idiotic behavior which occurs sometimes among men is misandrist then I am happy to be a "misandrist" in your perception. I think the condition of men in our society can withstand a small amount of anthropological observation.

Re: Speaking up

#102

Post by h2s »

timsally wrote: post #90

Whenever an instance of blatant sexism comes up, an attempt is invariably made to rationalize away the fact that a sexist act has actually occurred. We have had two such attempts made here so far and I expect more. One commentator is attempting to advance the baseless theory that the bully did not care about the sex of his victim. This particular individual even goes so far to say that "the biggest problem" is the al…

Not to mention the conspiracy theorist positing that it might have been a woman posting the fake porn pictures. The mental gymnastics some people will perform to avoid facing the obvious truth are amazing. How can we solve a problem we don't all admit exists?

Re: Speaking up

#103

Post by pekk »

belorn wrote: post #99

Conferences are a problematic area even if one ignore what kind of community it is. (be that IT, gardening, Sci-Fy, trucks, manufacturing, or furries). The math is not giving out pretty numbers. Lets compare two conferences. One is 5% females participation, and a other is 50%. We can directly say that the risk of getting sexually assaulted is minimum 20x larger at the 5% conference than the 50%. there is also a numbe…

Based on what data can you "directly say that the risk of getting sexually assaulted is minimum 20x larger at the 5% conference than the 50%"?

Re: Speaking up

#104

Post by nollidge »

gavanwoolery wrote: post #40

Sorry about your treatment. :( (And here I go into down-vote territory... :D) Before I say anything, let me say clearly I am not sexist; I am a strong advocate of equal rights (key word: equal). Some of your attacks can definitely be attributed to sex, but it's bad propaganda just to throw them all in the sexism bucket, or treat sexism like it is the norm. I know several females in the industry who are not afraid of…

For glob's sake, I wish people would stop saying "I'm not sexist BUT..." or "I'm not racist BUT..." or "I'm not a homophobe BUT..."

Because:

A) You're setting yourself up for failure.

B) Show, don't tell.

but most importantly C) it's hardly ever useful to denote any one person as racist or sexist or whatever. It's thoughts and ideas and biases which are much more usefully labeled so.

So, great, you are not sexist: you do not willfully do women ill. But do your ideas and unconscious actions support that intention? I would start by reflecting on the need to say "key word: equal", as though there are some politically significant number of people wishing for something beyond that.

Re: Speaking up

#105

Post by pekk »

timsally wrote: post #90

Whenever an instance of blatant sexism comes up, an attempt is invariably made to rationalize away the fact that a sexist act has actually occurred. We have had two such attempts made here so far and I expect more. One commentator is attempting to advance the baseless theory that the bully did not care about the sex of his victim. This particular individual even goes so far to say that "the biggest problem" is the al…

Even if it were true that the bully didn't care about the sex of the victim per se, and only attacked her because of her popularity, the nature of what was done is still sexist.

If I were to bash a competitor in public by reference to his homosexuality, it won't make anything better to know that I actually don't have any problem with gay people myself. It's unacceptable and downright evil.

Re: Speaking up

#106

Post by krickle »

newhouseb wrote: post #18

Halfway through reading this article I had myself really wishing posts like these would just publicly out the perpetrator instead of referring to them anonymously - unfortunately as I finished the article I realized that she hadn't done so because the perpetrator was never found out. For the cases where there is no question who the perpetrator is - I wonder if it would be beneficial to encourage more public shaming?…

We shouldn't allow disfunctional individuals to participate in our communities, but I think at the point where you photoshop nudes to damage someone's reputation, a therapist would be more appropriate than a lynch mob. I think that's why it seems childish to you, you know that shaming wouldn't make anyone change, it would just satiate our thirst for revenge.

Re: Speaking up

#107

Post by Nursie »

It does sicken me sometimes, the attitudes towards women of some of the tech folks I've run into. Not usually out and out misogyny, but stupid jokes and inappropriate comments. Most often made/said when there are no women around, they show how some of my fellow developers still think and it honestly feels to me like I'm working with neanderthals.

On the minor-but-still-horrible end of the scale, female colleagues have complained in the past that their ideas are often not taken seriously until repeated by a man. I hope I'm not guilty of this one (being the repeater or the listener) but I'm not entirely sure.

There have also been incidents where female friends and colleagues have been verbally and physically harassed in the workplace or in learning establishments, and they face an uphill struggle to get anyone to take their claims in the least bit seriously, with witnesses dropping out and the accused making all sorts of bizarre claims.

So no, sat here in the enlightened 21st century, amongst the people at the cutting edge of technology, the people who like to think themselves the vanguard of the new knowledge and tech based society... we're not the vanguard of social enlightenment, we don't operate as the fabled meritocracy, and we need to watch out for this behaviour and encourage women to speak up about it as much as possible.

If nothing else I have no desire to spend my days around sexist arseholes.

Re: Speaking up

#108

Post by roguecoder »

pekk wrote: post #97
roguecoder wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the difference between white-knighting and not is whether it's about the woman or the person who's behaving badly. "You shouldn't hit a girl!" It's not about women needing special protection, it is about the community not welcoming people who act like assholes. Of course women can defend themselves, but no one should have to defend themselves against that kind of behavior. And the only reason I believe it is…

To clarify, it is white-knighting when the woman doesn't care, when there was no actual offense, and it is really just an opportunity for someone to show off about how chivalrous or sensitive they are. You don't have to be sensitive or show yourself off to shut down misogynists and you definitely don't have to go looking for unclear offenses which the purported victims have no complaint about.

If the behavior makes me uncomfortable, it doesn't matter what the target thinks of it: I have a right to speak up. Even if the target is bothered by it I don't have a right to speak for her, though I can support her if she does speak up. All I can ever say is, "that behavior bothers me; I don't believe it is acceptable. Please stop." It doesn't matter if the offense is unclear to someone else, because it is about my boundaries, not theirs. You can disagree with my perception, but that doesn't make the behavior any more acceptable to me nor does it change how I feel about it.

Re: Speaking up

#109

Post by danso »

timsally wrote: post #90

Whenever an instance of blatant sexism comes up, an attempt is invariably made to rationalize away the fact that a sexist act has actually occurred. We have had two such attempts made here so far and I expect more. One commentator is attempting to advance the baseless theory that the bully did not care about the sex of his victim. This particular individual even goes so far to say that "the biggest problem" is the al…

> This particular individual even goes so far to say that "the biggest problem" is the alleged misuse of labels related to racism or sexism, as if this could somehow be worse that the discrimination the disenfranchised experience on a day-to-day basis.

This is one of the most persistent problems when discussing these issues: the idea that if the victim of discrimination didn't get raped or beaten by people wearing white hoods, then it does not qualify as real discrimination.

Re: Speaking up

#110

Post by Nursie »

rimantas wrote: post #38

Please, tell me, how would comments look if someone did the same thing, but for the guy? The sight of a bunch of guys rushing to fight sexism (often without even understanding what sexism is) and solve women's issues for them is amusing. This is not to say, that there are no problems. But the biggest problem I see is a knee-jerk reaction to anything involving gender or race. Sometimes assholes are just assholes and c…

"Sometimes assholes are just assholes"

Good, lets out them and get rid of them whatever their issue is, so the rest of us can get on with our lives.

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