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A Simplified Modern Approach to Stoicism

philosophy-of-cbt.com

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Re: A Simplified Modern Approach to Stoicism

#11

Post by kingmanaz »

guylhem wrote: post #2

Shorter list : - Read the "Epistulæ Morales ad Lucilium" from Seneca - Read the "Bhagavad Gita" to avoid being stuck in a given interpretation. - Shy away from religion. Find the truth by yourself And therefore make your own list of how to live your day. Feeling grateful and trying to see the lord in every being you encounter, friend or foe, is is mine. Also "no man does evil knowingly" seems wrong - sorry, but a tin…

>- Shy away from religion. Find the truth by yourself

Keep an open mind. While reading the Stoics take the trouble to read Augustine's Confessions or dip into Aquinus' Summa Theologica. Breeze through the Quran. Spend some time with the Book of Mormon. Drop into a synagog and get to know the worshipers there. Don't dismiss ideas out of hand. Contemplate them, and let your curiosity lead you where you need to be.

Re: A Simplified Modern Approach to Stoicism

#12

Post by blowski »

BHSPitMonkey wrote: post #9
blowski wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also "no man does evil knowingly" seems wrong - sorry, but a tiny minority of people really want to see the world burn. I think the point is that those people believe the world deserves to burn, or that by burning, it would be a better place. Hence, they are not doing evil while thinking "Ha ha ha, I'm so evil", but genuinely believe they are doing good. > Shy away from religion. Find the truth by yourself. You can…

> Hence, they are not doing evil while thinking "Ha ha ha, I'm so evil", but genuinely believe they are doing good. This is still just as naive, in my opinion. There are plenty of people who knowingly trample others to advance their own selfish goals, who know that it's unfair, and who sincerely don't care.

I agree - it's not that they are doing good, just that they believe it. It's because of this that you can't just trust your own opinions on what's true and good. Without some kind of external moral compass, you're left with moral relativism.

Re: A Simplified Modern Approach to Stoicism

#13

Post by DanBC »

BBC Radio 4 has a programme called "In Our Time". Many episodes of this programme will be of interest to HN readers.

(http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qykl)

Epicurianism is going to be broadcast soon. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01qf083)

Here's a list of the philosophy programmes: (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/features/in-our-time/archive/phi...)

And here's the episode for Stoicism: (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p003k9fs)

Re: A Simplified Modern Approach to Stoicism

#14

Post by guylhem »

kingmanaz wrote: post #11
guylhem wrote: post #2

Shorter list : - Read the "Epistulæ Morales ad Lucilium" from Seneca - Read the "Bhagavad Gita" to avoid being stuck in a given interpretation. - Shy away from religion. Find the truth by yourself And therefore make your own list of how to live your day. Feeling grateful and trying to see the lord in every being you encounter, friend or foe, is is mine. Also "no man does evil knowingly" seems wrong - sorry, but a tin…

>- Shy away from religion. Find the truth by yourself Keep an open mind. While reading the Stoics take the trouble to read Augustine's Confessions or dip into Aquinus' Summa Theologica. Breeze through the Quran. Spend some time with the Book of Mormon. Drop into a synagog and get to know the worshipers there. Don't dismiss ideas out of hand. Contemplate them, and let your curiosity lead you where you need to be.

Excellent suggestion: religious textbooks are great sources of inspiration.

However, they are dangerous, in the fact that while 90% of the content is great, the remaining 10% may damage one's personal progression. These 10% require adequate preparation to be seen as what they are - pitfalls, which is why I suggested to "shy away" from them, at least initially.

It is far too easy to get "stuck" in religion and take the whole 100% as perfectly valid thoughts. Swallowing up the full doctrine "fills" the cup of the mind, which is no longer open to further knowledge.

The only "safe" reading might be the Dharma, because of it self-criticizing nature and the suggestion to dismiss the teachings if they conflict with reality and experience

Re: A Simplified Modern Approach to Stoicism

#16

Post by snth »

kingmanaz wrote: post #7
lpolovets wrote: post #4

If anyone is interested in a book on the subject, I really like William Irvine's "A Guide to the Good Life" ( http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Good-Life-Ancient-Stoic/dp/01953... ) I have some extensive book notes here: http://www.quora.com/Leo-Polovets/Exceptionally-long-book-no...

Personally, I would cut out the middle men. Avoid glossy-covered and over-marketed summaries of other men's work. Grab a copy of Epictetus' discourses and his Enchiridion. Read Aurelius' meditations. Get familiar with Plutarch's Lives. This will get one started cheaply: http://www.ebay.com/itm/LUCRETIUS-EPICTETUS-12-Britannica-Gr... Be aware, this volume includes Lucretius who is not a stoic, rather, a typical reduct…

Ah, but we do know more about the world in many ways than the original Stoics did. William Irvine's book recasts the Stoic teachings a bit: we don't believe that we were created by Zeus, for example, so he talks about how to interpret Stoicism in an atheist way (if one wishes).

Re: A Simplified Modern Approach to Stoicism

#17

Post by kingmanaz »

guylhem wrote: post #14
kingmanaz wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>- Shy away from religion. Find the truth by yourself Keep an open mind. While reading the Stoics take the trouble to read Augustine's Confessions or dip into Aquinus' Summa Theologica. Breeze through the Quran. Spend some time with the Book of Mormon. Drop into a synagog and get to know the worshipers there. Don't dismiss ideas out of hand. Contemplate them, and let your curiosity lead you where you need to be.

Excellent suggestion: religious textbooks are great sources of inspiration. However, they are dangerous, in the fact that while 90% of the content is great, the remaining 10% may damage one's personal progression. These 10% require adequate preparation to be seen as what they are - pitfalls, which is why I suggested to "shy away" from them, at least initially. It is far too easy to get "stuck" in religion and take th…

Dogma prejudices atheists just as often as theists. For example, Darwin's Origin of Species contains a pitfall in that its readers can be persuaded to believe certain families of mankind are less evolved than others. Similarly, Marx's Capital and Manifesto of the Communist Party can lead one to believe that inequality is purely a function of material possession. A disciple of Smith's Wealth of Nations could reduce the world to merely a place to make money and which is the slave of market forces, etc. All of these works, while potentially "dangerous", stand on their own merits and should be read.

"Adequate preparation" is prejudice and should be spelled out as such. Socrates' dialogs stand as examples of the traditional Western method of exploring ideas, wherein one man questions another with the object of mutually understanding the essence of a thing, or, by being prodded toward future learning when having reached an uncomfortable ataraxy. This differs fundamentally from the critical theory taught in modern universities, wherein one is taught, rather than to seek an idea's essence, to tear it down beforehand.

Instead of fearing ideas, one should explore them.

Re: A Simplified Modern Approach to Stoicism

#18

Post by kingmanaz »

snth wrote: post #16
kingmanaz wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I would cut out the middle men. Avoid glossy-covered and over-marketed summaries of other men's work. Grab a copy of Epictetus' discourses and his Enchiridion. Read Aurelius' meditations. Get familiar with Plutarch's Lives. This will get one started cheaply: http://www.ebay.com/itm/LUCRETIUS-EPICTETUS-12-Britannica-Gr... Be aware, this volume includes Lucretius who is not a stoic, rather, a typical reduct…

Ah, but we do know more about the world in many ways than the original Stoics did. William Irvine's book recasts the Stoic teachings a bit: we don't believe that we were created by Zeus, for example, so he talks about how to interpret Stoicism in an atheist way (if one wishes).

>Ah, but we do know more about the world

I disagree completely. The appeal to progress is just as much a fallacy as the appeal to tradition. We do know more physical minutia, ie., slates and chalk have fallen to iPhones, sandals to sports cars, and yet the essential spirit of man is the same as it ever was, and that is what the Stoics are addressing.

The descendents of Aristotle have continued reducing the world to its sub-components in the centuries since Plato and he disagreed as to whether reality is in the whole or the part. But again, this is a fundamental division found in philosophy, and ultimately nothing new.

>he talks about how to interpret Stoicism in an atheist way

...it would be better if he had taught how to interperet it in an agnostic way, rather. Atheism is a closed-minded agnosticism.

Re: A Simplified Modern Approach to Stoicism

#19

Post by guylhem »

kingmanaz wrote: post #17
guylhem wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excellent suggestion: religious textbooks are great sources of inspiration. However, they are dangerous, in the fact that while 90% of the content is great, the remaining 10% may damage one's personal progression. These 10% require adequate preparation to be seen as what they are - pitfalls, which is why I suggested to "shy away" from them, at least initially. It is far too easy to get "stuck" in religion and take th…

Dogma prejudices atheists just as often as theists. For example, Darwin's Origin of Species contains a pitfall in that its readers can be persuaded to believe certain families of mankind are less evolved than others. Similarly, Marx's Capital and Manifesto of the Communist Party can lead one to believe that inequality is purely a function of material possession. A disciple of Smith's Wealth of Nations could reduce th…

That's an interesting point - one I mostly agree with.

But if you explore the ideas fully, how much do you keep of your initial self? And how do you do that, if you knows beforehand of the pitfalls, such as the ones you mentioned? How can you explore ideas if you already fear them??

From my limited understanding of philosophy, changing oneself too much is not desirable, since in the end the orignal opinions and self are lost - http://lesswrong.com/lw/y5/the_babyeating_aliens_18/

Analysis requires a reference, a broader frame, to detect such pitfalls - it seems pointless to experience ideas whose defaults are already too obvious to you.

Re: A Simplified Modern Approach to Stoicism

#20

Post by karunr »

"Give me the wisdom the see the difference".

But sometimes people (Aaron Swartz comes to mind) find the courage to fight and try and change things even when the odds of winning against large companies or the government seem remote.

Sometimes humanity advances when certain individuals fight against the odds. I wish I had their courage.

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