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Why Amazon Is Special and Apple Is Not

theatlantic.com

31–40 of 77 posts

Re: Why Amazon Is Special and Apple Is Not

#31
post #7

After seeing many cases where Amazon is not the cheapest, I wonder if Costco (and costco.com) could ultimately eat away at Amazon. It has incredible pricing power and an efficient infrastructure, and costco.com itself is growing rapidly. Most importantly, on many items Costco can beat Amazon's price by a significant margin (even comparing Amazon's tax-advantaged price to Costco's after-tax price)

They don't have even a fraction of Amazon's inventory.

They might compete of some selected products, but it's a long way to the "we have it all" of Amazon.

Re: Why Amazon Is Special and Apple Is Not

#32
post #14

And yet 5 years after the launch of the iPhone Apple still hoovers up a vast proportion of the profits in both the mobile industry and the desktop computer industry. Meanwhile 17 years after it launched, Amazon earned in total as much as Apple does in a single quarter. The point is that Apple's devices are not easily disrupted by low end competitors because building software platforms and ecosystems is incredibly har…

wow! you're right

comparing the net income of Apple to Amazon.. in 2012 the difference was astounding at 98,000 vs 41,733,000!

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=AMZN http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=AAPL+Income+Statement&an...

Re: Why Amazon Is Special and Apple Is Not

#33
post #7

After seeing many cases where Amazon is not the cheapest, I wonder if Costco (and costco.com) could ultimately eat away at Amazon. It has incredible pricing power and an efficient infrastructure, and costco.com itself is growing rapidly. Most importantly, on many items Costco can beat Amazon's price by a significant margin (even comparing Amazon's tax-advantaged price to Costco's after-tax price)

How much of that pricing power would remain if Costco carried as many items as Amazon? Amazon is predicted to eclipse Costco (and Target) in terms of sales this year (http://money.msn.com/top-stocks/post.aspx?post=34532428-58cf...), so given an equal catalog, Amazon would be able to sell more of each item and command a lower price, no?

Amazon's catalog is so much bigger than Costco's along two axes; more kinds of products, and more varieties of a given kind of product. The latter axis can be good for Amazon, since people have different utility functions, brand loyalties, etc. But one thing I like about Costco is that their catalog seems to be curated; whatever brand/model of a given thing they happen to carry, it's usually pretty decent. Amazon, by comparison, carries good and crap versions of pretty much everything, but you can use the customer reviews to separate the wheat from the chaff). By removing the paradox of choice, Costco not only reaps the usual benefit on the buyer's psychology, but is also able to negotiate better wholesale prices on the items they buy due to higher volume. Maybe that's a way for them to compete?

Re: Why Amazon Is Special and Apple Is Not

#34
That's why I always struggled with the concepts of dividends.

If you have so much money you can pay dividends, it means you have grossly high margins and not investing in growth enough; which means someone will come and not only destroy your margins but your business also.

If we're talking tech not mining.

Re: Why Amazon Is Special and Apple Is Not

#35
post #2

When has Apple ever "competed on price"? As far as I can tell, low cost competition has not been a problem for Apple.

In the 90's, Windows machines competed with Macs on price, and nearly made Apple extinct. With the iPod, iPhone and iPad, Apple have been going from Early Mover to Early Mover, which has allowed them to keep their high margins. Unless they can keep finding even more new markets to move into, they are going to find it harder and harder to maintain high margins. They will then almost certainly have to lower their price…

One of the things that must be considered is that from 1995-2006, Windows machines were better.

I was a Mac user through that time. Windows 95 came around with preemptive multi-tasking. The Mac was still more polished, but Windows 95 was a better operating system. This period also saw Intel processors far outpace the PowerPC. When OS X came out in 2001, it was so slow as to be nearly unusable. 10.1 helped, but comparing it to a Windows XP machine was simply disheartening.

Looking back on this period, I find it hard to believe that I (mostly) stuck with the Mac platform through it. OS X is wonderful today. However, I think it's important to realize that during the dark days for Apple, they were really selling inferior machines and an inferior operating system. From 1995-2001, Apple was selling a cooperatively multitasked operating system against a more technologically sound Windows 95/98. Intel processors were very significantly better as OS X came around and Apple was having trouble getting good PowerPC processors out of IBM and Motorola. Apple introduced a 700MHz iMac in 2002 against around 2GHz PCs. Apple did try to spin it and we all know that MHz isn't everything, but there was quite a gap - a gap that would simply become larger until the Intel switch.

So, it's easy to say that "Windows machines competed on price," but I think looking at the history, Windows machines were substantially better for a decade. Mac OS was still better polished and a more pleasant interface (in my opinion), but the classic Mac OS was ancient by the technology of the day, OS X was dreadfully slow when introduced, and Intel processors wiped the floor with PowerPCs. The Windows machines weren't just "competing on price", but were better.

While people may prefer Android or Windows phones, the iPhone's processor is as fast or faster than what is being offered in the competition. You may want a different mix of features than iOS offers, but I don't think a reasonable person would say that it's technologically inferior to its competitors. In many ways, Apple is still the state of the art. The A6 processor runs circles around the Galaxy S III (http://www.anandtech.com/show/6330/the-iphone-5-review/10), iOS is well liked, the build quality of Apple's devices is arguably the best in the industry, etc. Apple does have competitors and it would be foolish to discount them. However, Apple's current situation is absolutely nothing like 1995-2006. In that period, a dispassionate person would look at Apple's products and find them woefully inadequate. Today, dispassionate people don't find Apple's products lacking.

Re: Why Amazon Is Special and Apple Is Not

#36
post #12

Article claims that it's easy to compete with Apple, yet hard to compete with Amazon. Fair enough, makes a lot of sense to me. And yet, last I checked, a lot of companies made serious money in retail, but very few companies managed to earn substantial profits in smartphones, tablets and notebooks. I seems to be harder to compete with Apple than most investors think it is. (I say that as a developer who hopes that an…

The retail comparison is apples to oranges, in my opinion. Amazon is purely eCommerce, no brick-and-mortar, so the comparison is strongest when considering other eCommerce outfits.

Consider a site like NewEgg. At ~250M annual revenue they're an appreciable fraction of Amazon's size with a lot of catalog overlap. Certainly for commodotized consumer electronics they are direct competitors.

I think the difference the author is trying to articulate is that NewEgg's overlap with Amazon (for example) is considerably less impactful on Amazon than, say, Samsung's overlap with Apple. Phones and tablets are a huge proportion of Apple's profit generation - an area where they cannot afford to be dethroned. With Amazon and consumer electronics, having NewEgg overtake more of their sales in that area would hurt, but Amazon has such a vast catalog that the company, investors, and stockholders know they'll soldier on in a variety of other markets.

That's Amazon's power. Apple's no one-trick pony but they are a pony with a countably limited number of tricks. Amazon is a platform for selling anything and everything. They've abstracted out their distribution network to adapt to selling the Next Big Thing before it's even been conceived. Competitors can take a swipe at a chunk of their market but at the end of the day they're in so many markets that it's a truly monumental task to dethrone Amazon in any meaningful way.

Re: Why Amazon Is Special and Apple Is Not

#38
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your second line doesn't make sense. What does companies making money in retail have to do with being able to compete with Amazon? Now, if you could say that incumbents attacking Amazon's base stole serious revenue from Amazon that would be something. But what does it mean to say WalMart makes serious money in retail, ergo it is easy to compete against Amazon?

How do you define "competing against Amazon"? If you define it as general retail (who manages to capture the consumer dollar), then Walmart and its physical stores can be considered a competitor. If you take the article's concept: "build a massive online database and offline infrastructure to transport boxes from warehouses to hundreds of millions of doorsteps.", then clearly stores aren't competing with Amazon.

I actually think brick and mortar stores are competing with Amazon - and there is also an emerging hybrid approach that threatens Amazon as well.

In many places, suburbs and cities alike, people don't want stuff delivered to their doorstep. The existence of Amazon Lockers is proof enough of this - sotres now offer online shopping with local pickup (Best Buy, Staples, and IIRC Wal-Mart). This competes with Amazon.

Wal-Mart is also attempting to reposition itself as an Amazon alternative (i.e., pure online shopping) and has the capital and existing supply chain infrastructure to do so (they are one of very few).

On top of that Amazon continues to struggle with specialty goods. Amazon is very, very effective at selling mass-market products, but their attempts to move upmarket have been extremely mixed. Lower-volume, premium goods are not their forte, and brick and mortar stores (as well as niche online shops) still have a firm grip on that.

Not to mention we know that the public is extremely price-sensitive. Amazon continues to price-compete with Wal-Mart, despite its substantially lower volume, leading to even thinner margins. They do this out of necessity, because at this point for many people the conveniences of online do not trump a quick trip to Wal-Mart if the product is cheaper.

I don't think it's at all prudent to discount pure brick and mortar businesses as competitors to Amazon. Amazon very much exists in the same sphere as all retailers, online and off.

Re: Why Amazon Is Special and Apple Is Not

#39

That's why I always struggled with the concepts of dividends. If you have so much money you can pay dividends, it means you have grossly high margins and not investing in growth enough; which means someone will come and not only destroy your margins but your business also. If we're talking tech not mining.

Some companies are cash cows and don't have to worry much about huge new innovations. Think of Coca Cola. Sure, they have to compete with Pepsi and are probably investing in new equipment but at the end of the day, they aren't entirely reinventing themselves the way most tech companies have to.

Re: Why Amazon Is Special and Apple Is Not

#40

Since when does P/E matter for any company that is not paying dividends? If you buy a company's stock knowing that they aren't paying dividends, then you are obviously paying for growth.

Growth with no profits after 15 years? Amzn should make $5-$10 billion to justify it's $130Billion valuation. They will not gobble the world, Walmart, Costco and others are not going to roll over on a trillions and trillions of market.

By the way: a Good P/E is probably correlated with cash in bank, a higher buyout /sale price and likelihood of getting some cash back via dividends or share repurchases.

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