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Neil DeGrasse Tyson’s Eight Books Everyone Should Read

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Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson’s Eight Books Everyone Should Read

#51
post #28

Neil DeGrasse Tyson has got to be the most artificial 'Smart' guy the media had put forward since Carl Sagan.

I should continue, Both Carl and Neil are delightful men, they inspire an interest in the world that surrounds us in a way that few are capable of. I simply see a degrade in their value once they attempt to push one dogma or another.

Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson’s Eight Books Everyone Should Read

#52
post #50

The vast majority of comments here (and, I would guess most non-commenting readers) think this list is pretentious BS. Though it's a tangent: I'm curious about why it has received this many upvotes?

Hacker News's upvote-only policy for stories means that unless a story is flagged so much mods remove it, it will hit the front page so long as a significant minority of users thinks it's interesting. There's no "critical" crowd control of users saying "No, this isn't worth my time, back down you go."

Sometimes this is good, and allows controversial opinions to hit the top of HN; other times we get the Reddit effect, and short, fluffy pieces rise to the top instead of longer posts that might take longer to read, assess, and upvote.

I find the set-up kind of ironic, because when I first joined HN I was a college freshman who posted some fairly fluff things I'd written in the hopes that people would read it and get to know me. Now that I'm working on more interesting things, I don't think I'll be bothering to submit them here, simply because I doubt they're quite easy enough to receive votes. All in all, I don't think it's that the system's broken – like I said, this allows controversial pieces to still hit the top – but it's a downside to the way HN handles voting that cannot easily be avoided.

Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson’s Eight Books Everyone Should Read

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it good? Only Christians should read it (to become atheists). For anyone else, I think it's a waste of time.

The Song of Solomon and Ecclesiastes are the shit, though. But honestly, yeah, the Bible is the poorest written fiction I've ever not finished reading. It's not even worth the paper as a religious reference, surprisingly. Maybe reading something like Norman Cohn's "The Pursuit of the Millenium" would be more useful for someone wanting to understand (more deeper) christianity, though it's quite a heavyweight. And I un…

If you're going to read the Bible for pure enjoyment, please avoid the King James. Versions exist which are indeed enjoyable to read, yet faithful enough to the original texts that you get something interesting out of them.

I think my favorite anecdote about the importance of translation comes from Jack Miles and is about the Book of Job. Translated the King James way, at the end of Job God reveals himself and Job says something like, "I know that you can do all things, and that I am an ignorant muddler before you. Now that I can see you truly, I despise myself and repent." So the story ends, basically, with Job saying that God is too big and awesome for him to comprehend, and that he is not worthy, he is not worthy!

But Miles argues that the original passage is cleverer and more word-play-y than the popular translation gives it credit for. He puts forth a far more fascinating translation, which paraphrased is something like: "You know you can do anything. Nobody can stop you. You think I'm ignorant, and scold me for talking of things beyond my comprehension. But now that I have seen you for myself, I shudder in sorrow for mortal clay." He judges God and finds him wanting. And God restores his money and good health, and then for the rest of the Old Testament, he falls silent. Nobody else speaks with God throughout that chronological narrative.

When God does show up again, it's as Jesus – a vessel through which God can experience human suffering for himself and try to redeem it, rather than merely judging it. And as Christ he allows himself to undergo even worse pain than he inflicted upon Job, in the hopes that mankind might one day rise above that suffering.

The Bible is a much smarter and better book than it's given credit for, both by atheists and Christians alike. In the hands of somebody insightful and informed, it is wise as fuck, and thought-provoking as anything. (It's no Bhagavad Gita, but then nothing's as wonderful as the Bhagavad Gita.) In the hands of somebody either trying to read it as a narrative that will somehow explain the existence of God, or, worse, as a series of rules for living that God gave us, it's dull and ponderous, but don't let the yahoos ruin a good thing. The day we respect the Bible as the slippery and subtle book that it is is the day religious fundamentalism will no longer have an excuse for being.

Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson’s Eight Books Everyone Should Read

#54
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You were being obtuse because since his opinion differs from yours he must have had problems 'understanding' capitalism.

Yeah, because Capitalism is a system that has put millions/billions of people out of misery and starvation throughout the world (and you can see that, proven again when Communist China started to inject some capitalism in its economy in the 1990s), and summarizing is as simply "greed" just does not do much justice to it.

> because Capitalism is a system that has put millions/billions of people out of misery and starvation throughout the world

And meanwhile, it has systematized the misery and starvation of millions and billions of people itself, while – cruelly – being so opportunistic, so seemingly advantageous to the resourceful individual, that it teaches us to despise those who suffer, to see them as somehow beneath us. The contempt that was once the property of those few at the very, very top has become democratized, so that we may all join in in feeling it.

I'm not purely anti-capitalist, but your dismissal of the possibility that capitalism could have possibly done anything as horribly wrong to the world as its critics claim is pretty one-dimensional itself. There's a good argument to be made that capitalism hand-in-hand with the mass-production mindset of the Industrial Revolution led to a society in which the value of individuals is reduced rather than enhanced, and that this is one of the central crises of the 20th and early 21st centuries. Your abrupt dismissal of that possibility doesn't make it go away; it just makes you seem like you don't know what you're talking about.

Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson’s Eight Books Everyone Should Read

#55
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You were being obtuse because since his opinion differs from yours he must have had problems 'understanding' capitalism.

Yeah, because Capitalism is a system that has put millions/billions of people out of misery and starvation throughout the world (and you can see that, proven again when Communist China started to inject some capitalism in its economy in the 1990s), and summarizing is as simply "greed" just does not do much justice to it.

[deleted]

Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson’s Eight Books Everyone Should Read

#56
post #12

I've read some of those books cover to cover (Art of War, the Prince) & other's I've glazed over because they were, well, boring & laborious & I don't believe anybody should be recommending them as things to read for enjoyment (Origin of the Species or The Bible, for instance). So here's my list of 8 for things that you'll probably never finish, but extract huge value from anyway. -Richard Feynman Lectures on Physics…

"For those that deny the possibility of spiritual experience within a naturalistic world view. A lot of atheism that is public today misses empathy with religious experience."

Aldous Huxley, "The doors of perception". Warning: it's debunking the experience. Just as modern science starts to explain (and reproduce) why/how people are seeing "the light at the end of a dark tunnel" when they have near-death experience.

Let say it puts many things into perspective.

Btw I'm not an atheist, I'm more of a militant agnostic in the: "I don't know, and you don't either" style ; )

Regarding atheists lacking empathy: for centuries atheists have been tracked down and exterminated and there are still religious people, today, calling them atheists "disciples of Satan" and calling for their extermination.

So at least give them some credit if they lack "empathy" with those that have relentlessly been purchasing them.

Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson’s Eight Books Everyone Should Read

#57
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You were being obtuse because since his opinion differs from yours he must have had problems 'understanding' capitalism.

Yeah, because Capitalism is a system that has put millions/billions of people out of misery and starvation throughout the world (and you can see that, proven again when Communist China started to inject some capitalism in its economy in the 1990s), and summarizing is as simply "greed" just does not do much justice to it.

Capitalism has also annihilated entire species from the face of the Earth and is a leading, driving force in causing global climate change. Summarizing it as having put billions of people out of misery is not doing it justice.

Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson’s Eight Books Everyone Should Read

#58
post #12

I've read some of those books cover to cover (Art of War, the Prince) & other's I've glazed over because they were, well, boring & laborious & I don't believe anybody should be recommending them as things to read for enjoyment (Origin of the Species or The Bible, for instance). So here's my list of 8 for things that you'll probably never finish, but extract huge value from anyway. -Richard Feynman Lectures on Physics…

The Bible, boring? I mean, it drones on with boring passages sometimes, but the stories are far from boring. I'd say terrifying, sickening, tragic at times.

I'll bump your Feynman Lectures (watch the videos), and add everything else (his books). Even laypersons can understand him.

Feynman wrote some lectures on computation too which has some gems in it. http://books.google.com/books/about/Feynman_Lectures_On_Comp...

I will try your William James The Varieties of Religious Experience. I feel it is one of the problems that works against a wider adoption or acceptance of atheism that there is no "community"

I keep trying to finish Pepy's Diary, but so far I've failed. http://www.pepysdiary.com/

With regard to The Prince, I was advised that there are many translations and most are not done well. YMMV. Unfortunately, I can't remember which one my philosopher friend recommended.

Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson’s Eight Books Everyone Should Read

#59
post #12

I've read some of those books cover to cover (Art of War, the Prince) & other's I've glazed over because they were, well, boring & laborious & I don't believe anybody should be recommending them as things to read for enjoyment (Origin of the Species or The Bible, for instance). So here's my list of 8 for things that you'll probably never finish, but extract huge value from anyway. -Richard Feynman Lectures on Physics…

"For those that deny the possibility of spiritual experience within a naturalistic world view. A lot of atheism that is public today misses empathy with religious experience." Aldous Huxley, "The doors of perception". Warning: it's debunking the experience. Just as modern science starts to explain (and reproduce) why/how people are seeing "the light at the end of a dark tunnel" when they have near-death experience. L…

> Regarding atheists lacking empathy: for centuries atheists have been tracked down and exterminated and there are still religious people, today, calling them atheists "disciples of Satan" and calling for their extermination.

> So at least give them some credit if they lack "empathy" with those that have relentlessly been purchasing them.

For me, lack of empathy stems always from ignorance and a lack of understanding: it is literally when we look at somebody else and remain unaware that their life, their choices, their feelings, are exactly equally human to our own. For a long, long time, it was assumed that God was the only way to reach empathy or grace, and that atheists were directly rejecting humanity's only means of salvation. That was a gross failure on the part of the religious. Most religions teach humility and doubt as the fundamental values of humanity (and damn are those good values), so it's always funny when religious people seem incapable of doubting their own virtue.

So yeah. Atheistic criticisms of religious people come from a logical place. But I think what critics of the anti-theist movements point out is that to deny religion any value, to reduce it to something as simple as "invisible sky people" and "an excuse not to think for yourself" and then to assume that all religious people are brainwashed morons, is itself a gross misunderstanding of the origins of faith, of how deep a religion's teachings can go, of the purpose of theology in the first place.

It's well-known that many brilliant scientists and mathematicians in history were religious. Coincidence? Accident of religion being dominant at the times? Well, no; there have always been atheists, and a surprising number of them too if you've only heard modern rhetoric. Rather, religion (and theology) is the practice of understanding our place within something vast and enormous and, yes, uncaring. We are specks of dust within specks of dust – does this mean our lives have no value? Does this mean there is no such thing as morality, as kindness, as working at something greater? Every religion values an individual as important, tells you that yes, you do matter, even if only to yourself and your extended community, and then it tries to help you understand what it means that you're so small in such a large, chaotic world.

In researching the project I've been working on for the past two years, I found that at some point simply studying the subject matter directly wasn't yielding me very good results. I turned to a number of other fields to help me understand my material, but theological books were, surprisingly to me, among the most helpful. They spoke directly of the ways in which we relate to each other, and the reasons why our connecting to one another is more important when the world is so vast and enormous. It was a way of looking at the world that not even philosophers address quite so directly. So for that, I am incredibly grateful.

Plenty of religious people are hells of confused about what they believe. There's a lot of shit out there masquerading as holy. But the good parts of religion still remain, and people who find they need religion in their lives, or that they do believe in some kind of God, are not weak, are not fools. Some of the smartest people I know are religious, and their religion makes them more insightful. And seeing as you can hate religious ignorance or bigotry without hating religion as an institution, there's no reason to conflate the one with the other. Most of the atheists I know who truly think religion has no purpose whatsoever simply don't understand religion, and know they don't understand it, and are proud of not understanding it. That's a stupid way to be, and no amount of "atheists are persecuted" excuses such a lack of empathy.

Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson’s Eight Books Everyone Should Read

#60
post #57
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, because Capitalism is a system that has put millions/billions of people out of misery and starvation throughout the world (and you can see that, proven again when Communist China started to inject some capitalism in its economy in the 1990s), and summarizing is as simply "greed" just does not do much justice to it.

Capitalism has also annihilated entire species from the face of the Earth and is a leading, driving force in causing global climate change. Summarizing it as having put billions of people out of misery is not doing it justice.

Capitalism is a symptom, not a root cause as you are suggesting. Communism has (and has had) a similar record of environmental and climatic effects.

To me, the root cause is ... us. As Pogo (Walt Kelly) famously said, "We have met the enemy... and he is us":

http://www.igopogo.com/we_have_met.htm

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