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Why police lie under oath

nytimes.com

51–60 of 130 posts

Re: Why police lie under oath

#51

"Not just because the police have a special inclination toward confabulation, but because, disturbingly, they have an incentive to lie." Actually there have been studies showing that police lie much more than the general public. E.g. here is a summary of one such study showing that: http://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/statistics/statistics_ar...

The only section of that page that might be relevant to what you just said was " police and military personnel, groups with more reason to deny past illegal drug use, were twice as likely to recant than the general population." You appear to be arguing that police are intrinsically more likely to lie, but this study doesn't support that, it actually supports the quote you are trying to refute.

"You appear to be arguing that police are intrinsically more likely to lie, but this study doesn't support that, it actually supports the quote you are trying to refute."

I actually wasn't arguing that cops are more intrinsically likely to lie, only that they are more likely to lie. Although I do also believe that they are probably more intrinsically likely to lie. Why? I think you're right that of the non-police population, many would lie if they became cops due to the extrinsic incentives to lie. At the same time though, people who aren't comfortable lying about their current/past drug use are effectively banned from becoming cops. So while the study might not prove that cops are more intrinsically likely to lie per se, the fact that there is a significant disparity suggests to me that it's highly likely that part of that disparity is due to differences in who decides to be a cop. And, if it is the case that some significant portion of that disparity is due to selection factors, which seems likely, then my it would be accurate to say that they are intrinsically more likely to lie.

Re: Why police lie under oath

#52
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

any law that 80% of people on the freeway break is a terrible law. They are actually supposed to be set so that 80-90% of the people are obeying the limit (see MUTCD), but that often results in limits that are perceived as being too high by communities.

Why have speed limits at all then? I've heard anecdotes of professional drivers getting out of massive speeding tickets because they know how to handle a vehicle at that speed (and presumably had the good sense not to be driving way faster than traffic if there even was any) and its certainly possible to get a speeding ticket when traveling under the limit if conditions do not permit. Seems to me that they should be…

> Why have speed limits at all then?

Probably because not everyone (and especially teenagers) has "the good sense not to be driving way faster than traffic"

Re: Why police lie under oath

#53

Link is broken for me. But it should be obvious...the reason cops do anything that is illegal is that they are not subject to any consequences.

They are free to do what they want and rarely get any punishment. The only thing they get is Leave Without Pay for some time and that's only when they screwed up really bad.

If by bad you mean they committed mass murder.

Re: Why police lie under oath

#54
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

any law that 80% of people on the freeway break is a terrible law. They are actually supposed to be set so that 80-90% of the people are obeying the limit (see MUTCD), but that often results in limits that are perceived as being too high by communities.

Why have speed limits at all then? I've heard anecdotes of professional drivers getting out of massive speeding tickets because they know how to handle a vehicle at that speed (and presumably had the good sense not to be driving way faster than traffic if there even was any) and its certainly possible to get a speeding ticket when traveling under the limit if conditions do not permit. Seems to me that they should be…

Why have speed limits at all then?

Technically speaking, some states don't, at least not hard limits. For example, in Massachusetts, on roadways under MassHighway (well, now known as the MassHighway division of MassDOT) jurisdiction, speeds are supposed to be "reasonable and proper" (MGL Chapter 90, Section 17). Exceedance of posted speed limits are "prima facie" evidence of speeding, but not conclusive evidence, so it's technically possible to exceed the posted speed limit but not break the law if you can demonstrate that your speed is "reasonable and proper" (of course if you're not a lawyer or someone willing to spend a lot of money, this argument is not likely to fly in front of a magistrate). The MassPike and MassDCR roads require strict adherence to posted limits.

There are several other states that use "reasonable and proper" similar to MA, but I'd have to look them up to give a list. For the other states, I suspect the absolute limits are in place for simplicity.

Re: Why police lie under oath

#55
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

any law that 80% of people on the freeway break is a terrible law. They are actually supposed to be set so that 80-90% of the people are obeying the limit (see MUTCD), but that often results in limits that are perceived as being too high by communities.

Why have speed limits at all then? I've heard anecdotes of professional drivers getting out of massive speeding tickets because they know how to handle a vehicle at that speed (and presumably had the good sense not to be driving way faster than traffic if there even was any) and its certainly possible to get a speeding ticket when traveling under the limit if conditions do not permit. Seems to me that they should be…

> professional drivers getting out of massive speeding tickets

That seems unlikely.

> Why have speed limits at all then?

To reduce the frequency and severity of crashes.

To give people a baseline for safe speed. If most people's usual driving speed is "10 mph over the limit," then the effective speed limit is simply N+10 mph, where N is the number on the signs.

> tailgating

It's easy to deal with this effectively on your own. If you're being tailgated, just take your foot off the gas until you're 10mph under the limit. The tailgater will pass you at the very first opportunity. It's magic!

Re: Why police lie under oath

#56
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suggestion 1 - all on duty cops should at all times wear a chest mounted video camera recording all of their actions.

How would you propose to preserve police discretion under such a system?

By "discretion" to you mean officers revealing private/personal info or images (such as going to the bathroom)? In that case, you allow the officer to turn the system off for preset intervals (say, 5-10 minutes), with the understanding that if an arrest or alteration were to coincidentally happen during that shutdown period, the officer's account would be treated with extreme skepticism - and multiple occurrences of incidents happening during shutdown periods would be grounds for termination.

If by "discretion" you're talking about officers using their judgment in the field to let offenders go without citation, I don't see why video changes anything. Law enforement would still have the discretion to charge or not charge, and if anything, the video would be helpful to supporting that officer's discretion and for training purposes as examples of the right/wrong way to do things.

Re: Why police lie under oath

#57

Why aren't lie detectors used in court on a regular basis? Even if it didn't work 100% of the time, it would be better than having to read posts like this.

They aren't reliable.

If I was a suspect or witness testifying in a trial that could result in myself or someone I know getting the death penalty or going to jail for a long time, I'd be really nervous and maybe fail the lie detector even if my answers were completely truthful.

OTOH a police officer who's used to lying to suspects (it's the main tool police have in countries where torture or police brutality isn't allowed), or a hardened psychopath criminal who doesn't see anything wrong with lying to protect his own interests, may be so cool that he/she can easily pass the lie detector.

Re: Why police lie under oath

#58
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are already laws against perjury, and in many cases, IIRC, it is a felony. Ironic, isn't it, that prosecutors are unwilling to pursue all these potential felony convictions...

Lawyers tell me that judges rarely prosecute lying under oath, they just rule against the liars. The reason? If a person is accused of lying under oath, what's to stop him from lying more during the perjury trial? He's already accused of that crime, so more lies makes little difference. This is why perjury trials are so rare. Also, "perjury", strictly defined, means testimony that's both material to the issues and le…

Thanks for the response with a bit of context from that perspective.

However, I would think that "material to the issue" and "miscarriage of justice" would both apply to the potential, or particularly actual, conviction of another person based on false testimony.

Perjuring oneself while under deposition can lead to prosecution without any "miscarriage of justice" having taken place in the form of a concluded trial and judgment based upon said testimony.

The courts might also consider context, where the fact of a member of law enforcement committing perjury might be considered particularly onerous, and worrisome in that it may reflect a repeated pattern across multiple cases and potentially across multiple law enforcement officers if it reflects de facto policy and/or improper training and supervision.

Finally, effective law enforcement in this country is meant to depend upon and engender public trust -- and participation, amongst other things in the direct form of the jury. Failure to investigate and prosecute frankly criminal behavior on the part of law enforcement undermines this foundation.

Witness areas such as those described in the OP, where law enforcement ends up in certain respects being "another gang".

P.S. I might add that, with respect to the incentives that the OP article describes, it appears that the perjuring law officer may stand, directly or through their organization, to gain materially as a result of their false testimony.

Not only are they bearing false witness, they are doing so for material benefit.

Which speaks to the nature of the incentives and metrics described.

Re: Why police lie under oath

#59
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must have missed the part about hundreds of drug cases being thrown out because of such lies. Here it is from the OP > The New York City Police Department is not exempt from this critique. In 2011, hundreds of drug cases were dismissed after several police officers were accused of mishandling evidence. That year, Justice Gustin L. Reichbach of the State Supreme Court in Brooklyn condemned a widespread culture of…

You actually think this is a good article? Most of that case was also just testimony, this time people saying people are lying. The article backs up its case with: 1) Article written by a former police commissioner. 2) Quote about one actual case that apparently had some videotape proving a lie. 3) Bronx district attorney decides that the means to deal with lying is to interview the cops who are supposed to be lying…

Ah yes, you're right. Anytime someone accuses cops of lying, those cops usually go straight to jail, and judges rip them a new one. That is most definitely how the system is stacked up, especially in New York.

And a few years ago, when an officer secretly taped his bosses deliberately fudging statistics, that was just another case of biased recording devices...chronic issue, for sure. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Schoolcraft

I wonder why the author of that piece couldn't devote 30,000 exhaustive words for the article. Another conspiracy of course.

Re: Why police lie under oath

#60
post #33
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lawyers tell me that judges rarely prosecute lying under oath, they just rule against the liars. The reason? If a person is accused of lying under oath, what's to stop him from lying more during the perjury trial? He's already accused of that crime, so more lies makes little difference. This is why perjury trials are so rare. Also, "perjury", strictly defined, means testimony that's both material to the issues and le…

How does the result of committing perjury ("a miscarriage of justice") factor into whether or not it's been committed? AIUI (IANAL), perjury requires three conditions be met: a materially false statement (1) made with intent to deceive (2) while under oath or affirmation (3). Can you provide a citation or point to some case law for my edification, please?

> Can you provide a citation or point to some case law for my edification, please?

A reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perjury

Point 1 -- materiality: "Perjury, also known as forswearing, is the willful act of swearing a false oath or of falsifying an affirmation to tell the truth, whether spoken or in writing, concerning matters material to a judicial proceeding."

Point 2 -- resulting in a miscarriage of justice: "Perjury is considered a serious offense as it can be used to usurp the power of the courts, resulting in miscarriages of justice."

> a materially false statement (1) made with intent to deceive (2) while under oath or affirmation (3).

Necessary but not sufficient. One must still meet the materiality and miscarriage of justice tests.

And IANAL.

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