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Harvard Forced Dozens to Leave in Cheating Scandal

nytimes.com

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Re: Harvard Forced Dozens to Leave in Cheating Scandal

#31

Post by jhspaybar »

sigkill wrote: post #26
beloch wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take home exams can actually be quite brutal, but are rarely encountered in large (i.e. 100+ student) classes because they usually result in an correspondingly brutal amount of marking. I've had them only in a few senior undergrad courses and grad school. Why are they brutal when you have your notes, books, the web, etc. available? They're usually not based on spitting back answers you were given or can look up. You…

This is true. When the professor asks, if you want a take-home or an open book it's usually a trick question, and you always supposed to ask for a closed book test. Grad school, doubly so.

This is definitely true. I remember walking in to a computer architecture course, felt prepared, and then the teacher said it was an open book final right before handing it out. He had a stack of books for those who hadn't brought theirs as well. Needless to say, one of the scarier tests I've taken and while half the class seemed to sigh with relief, my stress level jumped...and rightly so. Open book or take home exams done right are downright scary.

Re: Harvard Forced Dozens to Leave in Cheating Scandal

#32

Post by slurry »

SagelyGuru wrote: post #4

Good god! Final exams at Harvard are 'take home'? I really thought that at least Harvard was a little more testing than that... Aside from the standard that sets, it is naive to the extreme to suppose that students allowed to take an important exam home will still write it just off the top of their head.

Take home finals are not the norm at Harvard. Most final exams are proctored by old ladies from Cambridge who are very strict about everything.

Where take home exams are used, a) they're usually harder than proctored exams, and b) they're usually open-book, so you're not expected to "write it just off the top of [your] head".

The rule is you have to work alone, can't work with another student. That's the rule that these students broke, apparently.

Re: Harvard Forced Dozens to Leave in Cheating Scandal

#33

Post by slurry »

blablabla123 wrote: post #16
beloch wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take home exams can actually be quite brutal, but are rarely encountered in large (i.e. 100+ student) classes because they usually result in an correspondingly brutal amount of marking. I've had them only in a few senior undergrad courses and grad school. Why are they brutal when you have your notes, books, the web, etc. available? They're usually not based on spitting back answers you were given or can look up. You…

Not so much difference to exercises in difficult courses I encountered. But we called that homework. (Germany)

Which is why German universities are consistently at the top of international rankings, right? Oh, wait...

Re: Harvard Forced Dozens to Leave in Cheating Scandal

#34

Post by wisty »

beloch wrote: post #7
SagelyGuru wrote: post #4

Good god! Final exams at Harvard are 'take home'? I really thought that at least Harvard was a little more testing than that... Aside from the standard that sets, it is naive to the extreme to suppose that students allowed to take an important exam home will still write it just off the top of their head.

Take home exams can actually be quite brutal, but are rarely encountered in large (i.e. 100+ student) classes because they usually result in an correspondingly brutal amount of marking. I've had them only in a few senior undergrad courses and grad school. Why are they brutal when you have your notes, books, the web, etc. available? They're usually not based on spitting back answers you were given or can look up. You…

How can you prevent group-work in a math exam?

The reality is, there's a few "twists" (non-intuitive steps) in every proof. If you know the "twists" it cuts the time down to 1/10th. If you're working in a group, there's a clear advantage, but no way to prove anyone cheated (unless students are dumb enough to copy it out line by line).

Re: Harvard Forced Dozens to Leave in Cheating Scandal

#35

Post by Tloewald »

michael_miller wrote: post #23

I find it a little disingenuous that students who are subject to "forced withdrawal" are allowed to re-enter after 2-4 semesters. This sends a horrible message to students - that you can cheat, and the worst case scenario is taking a couple semesters off. No mar on their transcript of starting a degree at Harvard, and suddenly transferring to another, probably academically inferior, school. No explaining to employers…

On the flip side, most US universities simply turn a blind eye to blatant cheating, and actively punish professors for even reporting it. I don't know if Harvard is better or this case was simply too egregious.

Re: Harvard Forced Dozens to Leave in Cheating Scandal

#36

Post by sseveran »

officemonkey wrote: post #24

>One implicated student, who argued that similarities between his paper and others could be traced to shared lecture notes, said the Administrative Board demanded that he produce the notes six months later. If I were accused of cheating and I argued that my notes would exonerate me, I would have no problem producing them six months later. Heck, I still have notes from a class I took in 1982.

Not all of us keep all of our notes forever. If the expectation is that they should be kept the University should note it (and maybe they do). Mine did not.

Re: Harvard Forced Dozens to Leave in Cheating Scandal

#37

Post by jasimp »

Tloewald wrote: post #35
michael_miller wrote: post #23

I find it a little disingenuous that students who are subject to "forced withdrawal" are allowed to re-enter after 2-4 semesters. This sends a horrible message to students - that you can cheat, and the worst case scenario is taking a couple semesters off. No mar on their transcript of starting a degree at Harvard, and suddenly transferring to another, probably academically inferior, school. No explaining to employers…

On the flip side, most US universities simply turn a blind eye to blatant cheating, and actively punish professors for even reporting it. I don't know if Harvard is better or this case was simply too egregious.

I'm not sure how cheating is handled outside my university, but they take it very seriously in my CS major. If we're caught cheating on any assignment we generally fail the course and have a note placed in our academic file, and are potentially removed from the major.

Re: Harvard Forced Dozens to Leave in Cheating Scandal

#38

Post by sseveran »

Tloewald wrote: post #35
michael_miller wrote: post #23

I find it a little disingenuous that students who are subject to "forced withdrawal" are allowed to re-enter after 2-4 semesters. This sends a horrible message to students - that you can cheat, and the worst case scenario is taking a couple semesters off. No mar on their transcript of starting a degree at Harvard, and suddenly transferring to another, probably academically inferior, school. No explaining to employers…

On the flip side, most US universities simply turn a blind eye to blatant cheating, and actively punish professors for even reporting it. I don't know if Harvard is better or this case was simply too egregious.

I have seen it even worse in medical and dental school. And because there is little ability to replace the lost revenue from expelling a student the schools are typically lenient.

Re: Harvard Forced Dozens to Leave in Cheating Scandal

#39

Post by officemonkey »

sseveran wrote: post #36
officemonkey wrote: post #24

>One implicated student, who argued that similarities between his paper and others could be traced to shared lecture notes, said the Administrative Board demanded that he produce the notes six months later. If I were accused of cheating and I argued that my notes would exonerate me, I would have no problem producing them six months later. Heck, I still have notes from a class I took in 1982.

Not all of us keep all of our notes forever. If the expectation is that they should be kept the University should note it (and maybe they do). Mine did not.

If you've been accused of cheating and you think your notes would exonerate you, you would be a fool to throw them out.

Re: Harvard Forced Dozens to Leave in Cheating Scandal

#40

Post by KaeseEs »

cynicalkane wrote: post #27
michael_miller wrote: post #23

I find it a little disingenuous that students who are subject to "forced withdrawal" are allowed to re-enter after 2-4 semesters. This sends a horrible message to students - that you can cheat, and the worst case scenario is taking a couple semesters off. No mar on their transcript of starting a degree at Harvard, and suddenly transferring to another, probably academically inferior, school. No explaining to employers…

If so many kids, proportionally, are cheating, the reasonable conclusion is not that there's an abundance of 'bad seeds' but perhaps that Harvard isn't very good at getting students to take ethics seriously. At your typical university, cheating on take-home exams is common, pressure is high, and ethics are underemphasized--is it your place to say a student reacting in the obvious and ordinary way deserves expulsion?…

Harvard is not going to bake ethics or morals into students during their time there, try or not.

Additionally, your blithe assertion that "but everyone was doing it!" is a valid defense is... unsettling.

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