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We Need to Have Sympathy for Those With Depression. It is an Illness

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Re: We Need to Have Sympathy for Those With Depression. It is an Illness

#81

Post by Buzaga »

DanBC wrote: post #38
hedwall wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He isn't talking about medication, he is talking about CBT. CBT on it's own has been shown to be effective for low to moderate depression.

You are speaking to someone who claims that psychiatrists are responsible for the holocaust, pearl harbour, etc etc.

straw-man, ad hominem

One thing is clear to me, discussing psychiatry is already a MAJOR TABOO... e.g.: in the article the dude says how he "thinks it has something to do with chemistry... and stuff" clearly in a not-so-scientific reasoning(not that all must be) but just pointing out this sort of questionings leads to major downvoting

Re: We Need to Have Sympathy for Those With Depression. It is an Illness

#82

Post by marvin »

jtchang wrote: post #54
erikpukinskis wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are the diagnostic methods pretty good? Both accurate and precise with very low false positive rates? Yes: "Overall sensitivity was 84% (95% CI, 79% to 89%); overall specificity was 72% (CI, 67% to 77%)" ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7755226 ) Is the medication proven to work for depression? There's no such thing as proof in science. A recent meta-analysis: "Most patients treated with serotonergic antidepressa…

Interesting...do you have the full article?

I'll Swartz it for you.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3uz18obebxavgff/Gueorguieva-et-al....

Re: We Need to Have Sympathy for Those With Depression. It is an Illness

#84

Post by atsaloli »

chris_wot wrote: post #56
atsaloli wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, it's no secret that CCHR is related to the Church of Scientology. It says so on www.scientology.org: As part of their religious Code, Scientologists pledge “to expose and help abolish any and all physically damaging practices in the field of mental health,” and thereby bring about an atmosphere of safety and security to mental healing. Accordingly, in 1969 Scientologists established the Citizens Commission…

I'd like to see external citations for the list of claimed achievements on that second page. To balance out your links and snippets, here's the Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_Commission_on_Human_Ri...

Here is one for you:

"In 1995 CCHR published the acclaimed book Psychiatrists: The Men Behind Hitler."

http://www.amazon.com/Psychiatrists-Behind-Hitler-Thomas-Rod...

And another one:

"In 1999, members of the Council of Europe issued a resolution that recognized psychiatrists as the architects of the ethnic cleansing and encouraged Council members to 'study the material that has been put together and researched by the French chapter of the Citizens Commission on Human Rights.'"

http://assembly.coe.int/ASP/Doc/XrefViewHTML.asp?FileID=8785...

Re: We Need to Have Sympathy for Those With Depression. It is an Illness

#85

Post by cookiecaper »

Meai wrote: post #74
InclinedPlane wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is wrong, wrong, wrong. Sometimes people get down or get "the blues" but this is something very much different from major clinical depression. Depression has many aspects but one of the most important is a chemical imbalance in the brain. It's not just a feeling or an emotion, it's a fundamental change to the way your brain works. And episodes of major depression can last for years, even decades.

And somehow a chemical imbalance in the brain cannot be achieved by human behavior? The brain constantly adapts and changes to outside stimuli. Why would it be impossible to create depression from outside stimuli? I'm not trying to marginalize the illnesses of other people, but let's try to have a more varied approach than "no it's in the brain and they are born with it"

It's obvious to anyone who's being honest that many depressive episodes that get labeled "clinical depression" are triggered by major life events like the death of a loved one and therefore there is at least some psychological element involved. The pharmaceutical companies are interested in convincing everyone that it is purely physical and therefore requires chemical delivery packages to ever have a hope of overcoming, but an honest analysis demonstrably dismantles this idea.

Sometimes you have to be willing to look past the studies and trials bought and paid for by drug companies, recognize that every published study, in any field, is complex and flawed, and be willing to admit what's plainly visible even if there an intelligentsia (also purchased) standing by to aggressively shout you down and claim that their fancy documents allow them to define reality and that any naysayers should be ostracized and cast out.

It's kind of funny that this same intelligentsia has now latched onto "bullying" as a pet issue, since it's basically been their MO for many years. Almost all progress gained by this group is gained by shaming less articulate and/or ballsy persons into submission.

Re: We Need to Have Sympathy for Those With Depression. It is an Illness

#86

Post by jrogers65 »

jtchang wrote: post #25
jwdunne wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I'm saying is a clear cut test would be great but it's not actually hard twit out it and a bigger problem is the treatment. I think the answer to both lies in the same area though, since the source of depression is not clear in the brain (I believe there was a study that shown SSRIs have an immediate effect on serotonin re-uptake yet takes a number of weeks to ease depression - implying serotonin doesn't play su…

We have to study it from multiple angles. I don't have a problem with more research into SSRIs. Hell I don't even have a problem with SSRIs. The main issue I have is that people think our understanding of mental illness / psychiatry is as good as say pathology.

Another aspect of depression is dependent on BDNF levels (Brain-Derived Neurotrophic Factor).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21749907

Re: We Need to Have Sympathy for Those With Depression. It is an Illness

#88

Post by yummyfajitas »

This essay is making a logical fallacy. The implicit assumption is that if a person is in a state which falls under the category "illness" they deserve sympathy, while they might otherwise not.

Unfortunately, the essay does not define it's terms, nor does address why depression specifically deserves sympathy. Near as I can tell, it's just an application of the noncentral fallacy.

Overall, a pretty terrible essay.

More on the noncentral fallacy: http://lesswrong.com/lw/e95/the_worst_argument_in_the_world

Noncentral fallacy specifically applied to medical conditions: http://lesswrong.com/domain/lesswrong.com/lw/2as/diseased_th...

Re: We Need to Have Sympathy for Those With Depression. It is an Illness

#89

Post by Tichy »

DanBC wrote: post #10

Already this thread has replies that are trotting out the usual "depression is just sadness" or "CBT is nonsense". The UK NHS National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence ( http://www.nice.org.uk/ ) gathers evidence of cost effectiveness (using quality adjusted life years) for various treatments. They are pretty clear - CBT is excellent for mild depression; CBT and medication combined is more effective than…

I think if you go along that line of argumentation, it would be nice to link to actual articles and studies, rather than the homepage of some organization. Otherwise it is just a "call to authority", and we know those were never wrong in the course of history, right?

For starters, what do they even measure to estimate effectiveness? Suicide rates? Happyness induced from a questionaire? Brainwaves? Hormone levels?

What does effective even mean? Does it mean the patient did not induce further costs for the health industry? It could mean all sorts of things. For example chaining a patient to a bed could also be very effective in preventing suicide. So if you measure "suicides prevented", perhaps chaining people to beds is the best course of action?

Re: We Need to Have Sympathy for Those With Depression. It is an Illness

#90

Post by dschiptsov »

rgrieselhuber wrote: post #4
dschiptsov wrote: post #2

BS. Everything that could be lifted by CBT is just ignorance and lack of determination. Medication without changing of habits is the same as drinking - it only masks the symptoms temporarily.

That is a highly uninformed opinion.

Who knows.) In addition to taking a few Psychology courses, including one of Drugs and brain, I happen to be from a Russian working class, which means I saw so much shit you probably never seen even in movies.) Uninformed, come on.
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