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Visual Studio and Team Foundation Server will have Git support

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Re: Visual Studio and Team Foundation Server will have Git support

#191

Post by jammycakes »

meaty wrote: post #139
jammycakes wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's sadly far too common for .NET developers to carve up their solutions into far more projects than are necessary. This can seriously slow down compilation times.

Actually if you are changing a dependency right at the bottom of the chain, it makes things much faster as each compilation unit (assembly) is less likely to be coupled to the changed code. Large assemblies are the enemy of compilation time as you can't partially compile them (like you can with java individual classes).

Yes but that's not the case if you're changing a dependency in the middle of the chain, as is more commonly the case.

Additionally, as far as I can tell, the main thing that slows compilation down isn't so much the actual compilation step as loading in and copying all the project references. Visual Studio does this separately, from scratch, for every project that you rebuild, since each project compilation runs in a separate csc.exe process.

Quote from Jeremy Miller: "I took 56 projects one time and consolidated them down to 10-12 and cut the compile time from 4 minutes to 20 seconds with the same LOC" (http://codebetter.com/jeremymiller/2008/09/30/separate-assem...)

Re: Visual Studio and Team Foundation Server will have Git support

#192

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

edwinnathaniel wrote: post #174
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way? What things are you comparing? All I know is that the next version of Java will have features inspired by the last version of c# http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/lambda-dev/2011-Septe...

C# tools and libraries have been inspired by Java since the inception. I'll give C# a +1 for lambda/functional feature but the rest does not equal +1. MSBuild -> Ant NuGET -> Ivy DoesNotExist -> Maven (don't forget to count maven plugins). NHibernate, Log4Net, etc -> inspired by its Java counterpart. How about sane deployment/packaging system? WAR, JAR, EAR push to App Server (tomcat, glassfish, etc). Not so easy wit…

I could pick those up one by one, but time does not permit. You are largely correct that there seems to be more experimentation in the the java open source ecosystem, and that some of the key parts of the same in .Net are ports from java (e.g. nUnit, log4net, nhibernate). Though in all those cases there are alternatives, it's just that the particular tool mentioned is most popular. Possibly due to familiarity.

With maven, I'm not sure that it's a good thing https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=maven+hate and there are lots of ways besides msbuild to do builds and installs. The rake, jake, psake family of tools are all viable.

With things like Cassandra, I don't care what language the server is written in as long as I can connect to it. This is IMHO the way forward, and not just for .Net. Though if you're looking for a noSql db written in .Net, there is RavenDb.

Re: Visual Studio and Team Foundation Server will have Git support

#193

Post by ygra »

charlieflowers wrote: post #186

This is (a) absolutely shocking , and (b) utterly fantastic ! If MS had tried to make a DVCs to compete with git, they would have always been third-fiddle (to git and Mercurial, and possibly others). But they could still have made money selling it to all-Microsoft shops. Instead, they acknowledged the situation and incorporated git support! This is so right, so beneficial to their customers, and yet so completely opp…

MS seems to be much more sensible in the Developer Tools division, i.e. .NET, VS, etc. There are several quite vocal open source supporters there and they seem to have enough influence that this part of the company does some quite good things. The Windows division ... not so much.

Re: Visual Studio and Team Foundation Server will have Git support

#194

Post by brass9 »

steeve wrote: post #127
mdkess wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haven't used 2012, but I think that IntelliJ IDEA is much better than VS 2010, anyway. Not to knock on 2010, but IDEA is pretty amazing.

Sorry but I don't share your view. I am using IDEA everyday (Python). It's great, but it's a HUGE memory and CPU hog (although IDEA 12 is much better). I always lament VS...

What's stopping you from using VS with PTVS? http://pytools.codeplex.com/

I am a heavy-duty user of both PyCharm/PhpStorm and VS myself.

Re: Visual Studio and Team Foundation Server will have Git support

#195

Post by brass9 »

edwinnathaniel wrote: post #92
steeve wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a (now former) long time Window developer, and even though people like to bash on it, I still think VS (>2003) is the best god damn IDE I've ever used. And with .NET it leaves everyone in the dust, IMHO.

Dream on. Java ecosystems have left you guys by 10k miles.

JVM ecosystem may be ahead of .net, but on the language front Java doesn't hold a candle against C#.

Re: Visual Studio and Team Foundation Server will have Git support

#196

Post by majc2 »

tucaz wrote: post #166
wcoenen wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a solution with more than 80 C# projects, and visual studio 2010/2012 handles it fine on modest hardware. I usually hit shift+F6 to build just the current project when I'm iterating on some change. This builds very fast because our individual libraries are small. It doesn't really feel "wrong".

Unless u have a very good reason to deploy and distribute 80 different DLLs it should feel wrong. Many people think that In order to have a well layered and decoupled application you need to breakup every single piece in a separate project and that makes no sense. Thats what folders and namespaces are for.

For production/distribution you can always use a tool like ILMerge or SmartAssembly to merge dlls/exes together into something that makes sense for that particular distribution. I've had plenty of success with both tools.

Saying that, I do get what you're saying. Good practices can be taken to the extreme. Some approaches such as prism, take the idea of breaking the UI up into modules that can be registered with a shell - where on reflection, that type of flexibility is rarely going to be needed.

Re: Visual Studio and Team Foundation Server will have Git support

#197

Post by steeve »

brass9 wrote: post #194
steeve wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but I don't share your view. I am using IDEA everyday (Python). It's great, but it's a HUGE memory and CPU hog (although IDEA 12 is much better). I always lament VS...

What's stopping you from using VS with PTVS? http://pytools.codeplex.com/ I am a heavy-duty user of both PyCharm/PhpStorm and VS myself.

Because I don't like doing Python on Windows

Re: Visual Studio and Team Foundation Server will have Git support

#198

Post by xradionut »

ezquerra wrote: post #82

I'm a TortoiseHg (mercurial GUI front-end) developer and an (occasional) mercurial contributor. I think this is really great news, both for git, Microsoft and OSS in general. It is definitely a great move for Microsoft. I hope they also add support for Mercurial in the future. Git is a great tool but I think Mercurial is equally powerful yet easier to use and understand (IMHO). It is not as widely used as git, partic…

Considering it's history of abandoning projects, products and APIs, Microsoft will probably neglect Mercurial.

Re: Visual Studio and Team Foundation Server will have Git support

#199

Post by edwinnathaniel »

charlieflowers wrote: post #188
edwinnathaniel wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C# tools and libraries have been inspired by Java since the inception. I'll give C# a +1 for lambda/functional feature but the rest does not equal +1. MSBuild -> Ant NuGET -> Ivy DoesNotExist -> Maven (don't forget to count maven plugins). NHibernate, Log4Net, etc -> inspired by its Java counterpart. How about sane deployment/packaging system? WAR, JAR, EAR push to App Server (tomcat, glassfish, etc). Not so easy wit…

But if you talk language , Java has never held a candle to C#. The original C# language and virtual machine was inspired by Java. Then, C# got: * Better generics * lambda expressions * the yield keyword and compiler magic for iterators * explicit interface implementation (rarely needed, but very well thought-out for when you need it) * LINQ!!! * Type inference * Dynamic keyword (I'm forgetting some things, it's late)…

Language alone does not mean tons of productivity gain. Building software requires more than just syntatic sugar.

C# has all these features yet I have never seen killer tools that changed the .net landscape like Rails did with Ruby. While I would not call those language features smoke and mirror, I argue that they are merely nice to have and not ground nor thought provoking.

At the end of the day, Java ecosystem still move forward way faster than .net. Spring, cloudera, datastax, alfresco, liferay, ehcache, jboss, tomcat, Embedded server like Jetty, and other great, free, mature, serious, and open source tools are available at our disposal vs taking to sales rep to buy licenses, which are a common activity in .net world.

Re: Visual Studio and Team Foundation Server will have Git support

#200

Post by edwinnathaniel »

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #192
edwinnathaniel wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C# tools and libraries have been inspired by Java since the inception. I'll give C# a +1 for lambda/functional feature but the rest does not equal +1. MSBuild -> Ant NuGET -> Ivy DoesNotExist -> Maven (don't forget to count maven plugins). NHibernate, Log4Net, etc -> inspired by its Java counterpart. How about sane deployment/packaging system? WAR, JAR, EAR push to App Server (tomcat, glassfish, etc). Not so easy wit…

I could pick those up one by one, but time does not permit. You are largely correct that there seems to be more experimentation in the the java open source ecosystem, and that some of the key parts of the same in .Net are ports from java (e.g. nUnit, log4net, nhibernate). Though in all those cases there are alternatives, it's just that the particular tool mentioned is most popular. Possibly due to familiarity. With m…

Sir, Maven is an awesome thing. Would you want me to do a query in Google for each and individual .net and the word "sucks"? Since when that matters?

There will be minorities that just happened to dislike everything. There are also people who just happened to use maven in the wrong way and ended up fighting with it.

This suggests that you have never used and experienced Maven. Combined eclipse with m2clipse and you will get awesome development experience. Imagine not having to download 3rd party library manually by visiting their website. Imagine autocomplete of the freshly acquired 3rd party lib via your IDE to also shows you the javadoc. Imagine trying to navigate to the 3rd party class and method implementation without setting up your IDE or messing with path/folder setup automagically. You cannot do any of these in .net nor vs.net.

I know RavenDB but can you compare it with Cassandra, Hbase? Not by many many miles. The latter two are battle tested by top most traffic website while the former has yet to reach that level.

I also argued that the javaee 6 stack provides way better, simpler, and modular approach to building back end systems. There is no equivalent EJB 3 in .net (I will be damned if you do another google query for EJB sucks. the old one is, but not the new one. Also experiencing the tools before making your judgement would not hurt). All in all .net framework for the most part of it have always been behind Java (except in the category of presentation/UI).

I prefer not to continue the discussion when the obvious is there right in front of us: C# has cool language features but honestly nothing has been groundbreaking in the .net world. The last one probably was asp.net mvc and the changes in the core asp.net as some sort of an api instead of the old asp.net webform stack, mimicking the JEE web profile approach.

Rake and the rest can be considered sub features of maven. Not. Even. Close.

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