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Chinese Hackers Infiltrate New York Times Computers

nytimes.com

71–80 of 183 posts

Re: Chinese Hackers Infiltrate New York Times Computers

#71
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And network card firmware. And graphics card firmware. And in some cases, also ILO firmware, DVD drive firmware, and maybe a few other pieces. If you trust your IT supplier, and the equipment is a two years old, it's probably more economical to replace everything than try to fix it. But why would you trust your IT supplier - who sources all their stuff from China in the first place?

All of those things are technically true, but don't match up with the M.O. of the perpetrators in question (they're not actually using any super-fancy BIOS rootkits). Also, the remediation process is exactly that, a process. It involves a pre-planned, direct remediation effort at a specific time, after which, egress traffic is monitored to look for any other outbound connections that pop up that were missed in the fi…

The MO is that they are a state attacker, not a one trick pony.

Until proven otherwise, you should assume that in addition to what you know they did, they did everything you can think of that is within their known capabilities. Super fancy BIOS rootkits are not outside their known capabilities.

Also monitoring egress traffic is easier said than done. For example you could have a special gmail account that you connect to over https while the user is actively using the computer. This account receives and sends commands as email messages. Since it is normal for that computer to connect to gmail, and the connection is normally encrypted, that communications channel could be rather hard to detect.

Re: Chinese Hackers Infiltrate New York Times Computers

#72
post #19

I think it's important to understand the Chinese perspective on this issue, if only to see why they do these things. Start with this: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/15/world/15aid.html?pagewante... U.S. Groups Helped Nurture Arab Uprisings Even as the United States poured billions of dollars into foreign military programs and anti-terrorism campaigns, a small core of American government-financed organizations were pr…

Very good points! >> it does not see a line between NGOs, the NYT/WSJ, and the US government. Aren't we all doing the same mistake when we refer to them? All we know is that the attacks came from China, so we safely assume it came from the Government? Why is it that each time something comes from China (a country with approximately 5 time more people than the US - source Wikipedia) we blame their government and treat…

China pushes an alternative world view[0] to the US, it doesn't involve individual rights, and free markets. It seems the majority in the west (primarily the U.S) view this as a 'menace' or a 'threat' to their way of life... hence the constant propaganda.

EDIT: Just in response to the down votes, I thought maybe it was due to no citation.

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_market_economy

Re: Chinese Hackers Infiltrate New York Times Computers

#73
post #19

I think it's important to understand the Chinese perspective on this issue, if only to see why they do these things. Start with this: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/15/world/15aid.html?pagewante... U.S. Groups Helped Nurture Arab Uprisings Even as the United States poured billions of dollars into foreign military programs and anti-terrorism campaigns, a small core of American government-financed organizations were pr…

Very good points! >> it does not see a line between NGOs, the NYT/WSJ, and the US government. Aren't we all doing the same mistake when we refer to them? All we know is that the attacks came from China, so we safely assume it came from the Government? Why is it that each time something comes from China (a country with approximately 5 time more people than the US - source Wikipedia) we blame their government and treat…

I've been there. I spent 6 months last year.

What you might not understand is that the Chinese government has its hands in every corporation, organization, competitor, etc.

You might have false assumptions coming from the US system, where corporations and government are separate entities. They even sue one another at times.

In China, large corporations are overseen by the government. The government funds them, decides what they can and cannot do, and decides which corporations will succeed. You cannot build a search engine or social network right now, unless you pull a political coup, because the government controls which companies succeed. Baidu and Tencent are the "blessed children" for the time being.

Within the government, China is run by various clans, continually vying for power in the Communist Party. It's easiest to build a large company by having a family member in the upper echelon of the party, to push things through.

Everything is connected to the government in China. It's in your company's interest to keep the party in power, because the corrupt politicians keep you in business. It's in your wealthy family's interest to keep the government in power, because they keep you wealthy. It's a giant corrupt system, keeping itself in place.

Most likely, these attacks were actually executed by some low-level hackers somewhere. But most certainly, someone in the government has something to do with their funding, organization, or guidance.

Re: Chinese Hackers Infiltrate New York Times Computers

#74
post #19

I think it's important to understand the Chinese perspective on this issue, if only to see why they do these things. Start with this: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/15/world/15aid.html?pagewante... U.S. Groups Helped Nurture Arab Uprisings Even as the United States poured billions of dollars into foreign military programs and anti-terrorism campaigns, a small core of American government-financed organizations were pr…

As a Chinese, I would say the Chinese government is worried about 'Arab Spring', but that's not why they attacked NYT this time. The 'Great firewall' was built to prevent any uprising similar to 'Arab spring' from being started.

How likely do you think a Chinese spring would be?

It's unfortunate that we don't get more foreign perspective on HN and Reddit - I hope you comment more.

Re: Chinese Hackers Infiltrate New York Times Computers

#75
post #56

I like how the whole article is rambling about Chinese hacks yet no strong & clear evidence suggests it's from China, except perhaps from a Chinese IP address. You know what, Chinese computers are also likely to be hacked easily.

It makes this sound more like a casualty of war, and less like an embarrassing mistake.

Re: Chinese Hackers Infiltrate New York Times Computers

#76
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And network card firmware. And graphics card firmware. And in some cases, also ILO firmware, DVD drive firmware, and maybe a few other pieces. If you trust your IT supplier, and the equipment is a two years old, it's probably more economical to replace everything than try to fix it. But why would you trust your IT supplier - who sources all their stuff from China in the first place?

All of those things are technically true, but don't match up with the M.O. of the perpetrators in question (they're not actually using any super-fancy BIOS rootkits). Also, the remediation process is exactly that, a process. It involves a pre-planned, direct remediation effort at a specific time, after which, egress traffic is monitored to look for any other outbound connections that pop up that were missed in the fi…

> but don't match up with the M.O. of the perpetrators in question

Oh, the hubris.

This statement may be true (and probably is), but the perpetrators might also be running a BIOS rootkit at the same time - unless you actually pull the bios chip out and read it in another machine, you cannot tell. If you haven't already, read Ken Thompson's "Reflections on Trusting Trust", and mentally replace every occurrence of "C compiler" with "BIOS" and "login" with "Hypervisor".

> It can take several times before you sound an "all-clear".

I seriously hope no one takes this as security advice. You should read on "covert channels" (e.g. in Tannenbaum's OS book) - this advice is rubbish if you are dealing with a targeted attack (which is known to be the case here).

It's probably acceptable advice against "drive by" and other opportunistic malware.

An important pillar of real (rather than perceived) IT security is that once a system has been compromised, you can hardly trust anything about it anymore. Things were simpler in the past, when BIOS was an EPROM (not rewritable by software), CPUs had no virtualization support (so you knew what you see from the inside is what's really there), and the world wasn't as connected.

Nowadays, if you really care about targeted attacks, and you trust your suppliers (a given; if you don't, you can't use a computer), it is always cheaper to replace a system than attempt to verify it clean.

Re: Chinese Hackers Infiltrate New York Times Computers

#77
post #62
post #19

I think it's important to understand the Chinese perspective on this issue, if only to see why they do these things. Start with this: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/15/world/15aid.html?pagewante... U.S. Groups Helped Nurture Arab Uprisings Even as the United States poured billions of dollars into foreign military programs and anti-terrorism campaigns, a small core of American government-financed organizations were pr…

> It's not obvious that they are wrong in that assessment. Any entity with the reach of the United States is naturally going to have connections with all kinds of actors. While the idea of Americans/Zionists/Illuminati/Nibiru pulling the strings behind every major event is no doubt very exciting for conspiracy theorists (eg. I'm getting 2.28 million google hits for ["dalai lama * a cia agent"]), and simpler (ignoring…

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/06/world/africa/weapons-sent-...

  But in the months before, the Obama administration clearly 
  was worried about the consequences of its hidden hand in 
  helping arm Libyan militants, concerns that have not 
  previously been reported. The weapons and money from Qatar 
  strengthened militant groups in Libya, allowing them to   
  become a destabilizing force since the fall of the Qaddafi 
  government.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/06/16/us-iran-election-t...

  U.S. State Department speaks to Twitter over Iran

  The U.S. State Department said on Tuesday it had contacted 
  the social networking service Twitter to urge it to delay a 
  planned upgrade that would have cut daytime service to 
  Iranians who are disputing their election.
http://judiciary.house.gov/news/Hearing%20Statement%20hr2121...

  China Democracy Promotion Act of 2011

  By denying visas to certain Chinese nationals in the 
  government who promote human rights abuses, we might as 
  well assist Chinese patriots who work to end the lack of 
  accountability for government officials who are part of the 
  Chinese Communist Party. This legislation will send a 
  message that abuses by these officials that go unchecked 
  within China will not be ignored by the international 
  community.  
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/11/world/asia/chinese-communi...

  But they say the party’s agenda, as it stands today, is not 
  visionary enough to set China on the path to stability. 
  What is needed, they say, is a comprehensive strategy to 
  gradually extricate the Communist Party, which has more 
  than 80 million members, from its heavy-handed control of 
  the economy, the courts, the news media, the military, 
  educational institutions, civic life and just the plain 
  day-to-day affairs of citizens. Only then, the critics 
  argue, can the government start to address the array of 
  issues facing China 
http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674008793

  By examining the growth in individual rights, the public 
  sphere, democratic processes, and pluralization, the author 
  seeks to answer questions concerning the relevance of 
  liberal democratic ideas for China and the relationship 
  between a democratic political culture and a democratic 
  political system. 
http://csis.org/files/publication/TWQ_13Winter_He.pdf

  China represents an uncomfortable thorn in U.S. efforts to 
  promote democracy around the world. While some projects 
  have been successful, a large gap exists between the 
  increasing U.S. funding in China and its "limited
  impact." [1] Moreover, U.S. democracy promotion in China 
  has contributed to strategic distrust between China and the 
  United States; Beijing perceives it as a strategic move to 
  destabilize the rise of China and sabotage the Communist
  Party’s leadership.
Given countless public statements like this, the PRC thinks with some justification that all these American institutions - Twitter, the State Department, the New York Times, Harvard - would like to see their government changed and replaced with a democracy. Despite their obvious internal differences, said institutions do share the assumption that exporting Western democracy will be good for China. But China sees what it has done for the Middle East and may have its own opinions.

  that doesn't mean sane people should believe extraordinary 
  claims without extraordinary evidence
Move along, nothing to see here? Yet the NYT itself admits: "Diplomatic cables report how American officials frequently assured skeptical [Arab] governments that the training was aimed at reform, not promoting revolutions." Much of this is out in the open, so it's more coordination than conspiracy. As for the phrase "conspiracy theory", the implication of that phrase is that conspiracies don't exist. And to entertain the idea that Americans (let alone Zionists!) could possibly conspire is equated by you to believing in the Illuminati and the Nibiru. Yet in this selfsame article the NYT implies that the Chinese government engaged in a conspiracy against them.

Perhaps then you believe it is only Americans that never conspire. What then to make of "the Obama administration clearly was worried about the consequences of its hidden hand in helping arm Libyan militants"?

Re: Chinese Hackers Infiltrate New York Times Computers

#78
post #55
post #19

I think it's important to understand the Chinese perspective on this issue, if only to see why they do these things. Start with this: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/15/world/15aid.html?pagewante... U.S. Groups Helped Nurture Arab Uprisings Even as the United States poured billions of dollars into foreign military programs and anti-terrorism campaigns, a small core of American government-financed organizations were pr…

> This is why the Chinese government feels that it is under attack by the United States, and it does not see a line between NGOs, the NYT/WSJ, and the US government, Ironically, you are assuming the same thing about China.

Because that's actually how it IS in China.

China is a giant corrupt honeycomb. There are blurred lines between corporation/government. Corporations are often a face for government interests. It's totally corrupt, and everybody knows that the face of an organization is not the actual motives behind the organization.

A single Chinese clan will control multiple branches of government and multiple corporations. They all seem separate, but they have the same interests and work together.

It makes sense for the Chinese to assume that the US is similar. That there is some corrupt connection behind the faces of separate entities, just like in China.

Re: Chinese Hackers Infiltrate New York Times Computers

#79
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of those things are technically true, but don't match up with the M.O. of the perpetrators in question (they're not actually using any super-fancy BIOS rootkits). Also, the remediation process is exactly that, a process. It involves a pre-planned, direct remediation effort at a specific time, after which, egress traffic is monitored to look for any other outbound connections that pop up that were missed in the fi…

The MO is that they are a state attacker, not a one trick pony. Until proven otherwise, you should assume that in addition to what you know they did, they did everything you can think of that is within their known capabilities. Super fancy BIOS rootkits are not outside their known capabilities. Also monitoring egress traffic is easier said than done. For example you could have a special gmail account that you connect…

Sorry, I should have stated that better. I'm not talking about, "best practice for an advanced attack from an unknown perpetrator". I absolutely agree with you in general.

I'm saying that, this particular attacker, is a known, identifiable actor. They have names, they have huge reams of files in manilla envelopes. If you are privy, you get to know their actual names, see photos of them.

They have a very specific methodology which they use. You use that methodology to determine the extent of what they've accomplished. This specific actor is not using any super fancy BIOS rootkits.

If one of their campaigns ever gets to the point that they are unable to obtain repeatable persistent access, that campaign is sent to a different actor (with a completely different big manilla envelope about) who will then attempt a more advanced campaign.

The tools and tactics for these intrusions are very specific to the actual actors responsible.

Re: Chinese Hackers Infiltrate New York Times Computers

#80
post #56

I like how the whole article is rambling about Chinese hacks yet no strong & clear evidence suggests it's from China, except perhaps from a Chinese IP address. You know what, Chinese computers are also likely to be hacked easily.

I agree that the Times can't prove absolutely that the Chinese government was behind the attack. But they do provide a few strong pieces of evidence: (1) the university computers used in this attack were the same machines used in past attacks that were linked to China's military; (2) the attacks coincided directly with policy issues affecting Chinese officials.

The article also had a relatively even-handed tone. It discussed the broader trend of hacks originating in China without linking the trend to the Chinese government, and it included an eloquent rebuttal quote from a Chinese official.

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