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Booting Linux using UEFI can brick Samsung laptops

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Re: Booting Linux using UEFI can brick Samsung laptops

#41

Post by RexRollman »

keeperofdakeys wrote: post #22
guilloche wrote: post #14

Bios is outdated, but UEFI is even worse and became such a mess. It did not fix BIOS's issues and is unnecessary complicated. The efforts are regretfully wasted on UI.

Sorry, but the BIOS had many issues, and UEFI provided a solution to them, even if it wasn't an inherently good system. 1.The BIOS isn't portable, you can compile UEFI for any platform by porting a small base module. Everything uses this module, so the compiler will take care of the rest. 2. BIOS was a heap of 16bit assembly code, with a small memory space. It was quite hard to add any kind of complex functionality.…

It sounds like UEFI is over-engineered. All I want is for something to initialize the hardware and hand over for booting.

Re: Booting Linux using UEFI can brick Samsung laptops

#42

Post by tarabukka »

stephengillie wrote: post #36
UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #12

So random academic question - Should it be literally possible for an OS to "brick" hardware even if the OS was intentionally designed to do just that? Now I know in this particular case Samsung wrote both the driver and the firmware, so it is easy to point blame here. But more broadly, should hardware be built/designed so it has a "fail safe" mode where it just won't allow its self to be damaged by OS/software instru…

Are you describing a Denial of Service attack? One where the attacker would get the desktop or server to try to install and run Arch Linux, then let it brick itself? If a critical Windows server or workstation was hit, this could cause a project to grind to a halt.

I think finding a kernel exploit in the server's OS that let you run the firmware-bricking code would probably be more viable than installing a new operating system.

Re: Booting Linux using UEFI can brick Samsung laptops

#43

Post by Locke1689 »

daeken wrote: post #5
RexRollman wrote: post #2

Say what you will about the old BIOS systems but at least it worked and everyone understood it. EFI/uEFI seems to be a big clusterfuck.

I am completely and utterly baffled by this statement. Do you realize how many man-years have been spent working around BIOS bugs over the years? Get any kernel developer a drink, then just say the word 'BIOS'; your opinion of UEFI will change pretty rapidly. I've dealt with kernel dev for BIOS systems, CSM development for UEFI, etc etc. I'll stick with UEFI, even if it does still have some growing pains.

daeken is absolutely right. BIOS is a fucking nightmare.

Real mode (or the lack of it in Intel VT-x) still wakes me up in a cold sweat at night.

Re: Booting Linux using UEFI can brick Samsung laptops

#44

Post by Locke1689 »

josteink wrote: post #26

The biggest problem with UEFI was that someone decided to mess it up and complicate it by adding DRM and signing-requirements. It's the result of computing following designs mandated by the MPAA/RIAA. Who on earth thought that could turn out OK?

None of this is accurate.

Re: Booting Linux using UEFI can brick Samsung laptops

#45

Post by hexonexxon »

keeperofdakeys wrote: post #17
UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #12

So random academic question - Should it be literally possible for an OS to "brick" hardware even if the OS was intentionally designed to do just that? Now I know in this particular case Samsung wrote both the driver and the firmware, so it is easy to point blame here. But more broadly, should hardware be built/designed so it has a "fail safe" mode where it just won't allow its self to be damaged by OS/software instru…

The word is bugs. It's very hard, and almost impossible to fix all bugs. Code with no bugs is really code with no known bugs. Especially when dealing with C and assembly, different parts of the code can effect other parts in ways a programmer may not anticipate. You really need to get a 'safer' language to prevent certain types of bugs, especially with the "data and code share the same segments" model of C.

Or just learn how to do it properly

Getting Code Right And Secure, The OpenBSD Way http://www.bsdcan.org/2010/schedule/events/172.en.html

Re: Booting Linux using UEFI can brick Samsung laptops

#46

Post by mixmastamyk »

U/EFI is an interesting subject. Yes, of course better than the primitive bios it replaced. Interesting in that you can can play with a new OS.

But, Intel went out and invented another operating system? Why, when embedded Linux (&coreboot) already existed? with a full stack of software? Would be nice to have a web browser available from the firmware for downloading drivers, etc. I ran Linux on an Itanium at work circa 2003 so it was definitely doable.

Is the answer that MS wouldn't allow it? Or is there another reason?

Re: Booting Linux using UEFI can brick Samsung laptops

#47

Post by dmm »

josteink wrote: post #26

The biggest problem with UEFI was that someone decided to mess it up and complicate it by adding DRM and signing-requirements. It's the result of computing following designs mandated by the MPAA/RIAA. Who on earth thought that could turn out OK?

UEFI has _NOTHING_ to do with DRM.

Re: Booting Linux using UEFI can brick Samsung laptops

#48

Post by cube13 »

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #12

So random academic question - Should it be literally possible for an OS to "brick" hardware even if the OS was intentionally designed to do just that? Now I know in this particular case Samsung wrote both the driver and the firmware, so it is easy to point blame here. But more broadly, should hardware be built/designed so it has a "fail safe" mode where it just won't allow its self to be damaged by OS/software instru…

It's worth pointing out that Samsung does have a history of issues with "secure" bootloaders.

https://plus.google.com/u/0/101093310520661581786/posts/Drq9...

Re: Booting Linux using UEFI can brick Samsung laptops

#49

Post by entropy_ »

bd_at_rivenhill wrote: post #31
keeperofdakeys wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have any technical sources for this bug, but I'm quite certain it would be a bug in either the UEFI firmware or the kernel driver. Firmware can be quite complicated pieces of software, and if you accidentally change the wrong memory values, you might trigger a firmware update or change configurations of the hardware present in the firmware. All this stuff can be changed because it needs to be configurable, an…

Seems like the best solution is that there should always be a way to reset the firmware to a hard-coded factory default which represents the state that existed when the machine came off the assembly line. In this way, a bad firmware update can always be rolled back. EDIT: looks like somebody reporting the bug did this the old-fashioned way: "Just to add, on UEFI machines that got bricked like this I removed the batte…

With various laptops I've owned over the years, this almost always fixes the problem when the laptop refuses to boot(except when there's actual hardware failure). It's usually pretty straightforward to do too.

Re: Booting Linux using UEFI can brick Samsung laptops

#50

Post by spyder »

Just fixing the driver doesn't seems a safe solution, because then malwares still can do the same to brick the hardware, isn't? Sure nowadays most malwares don't want to brick your hardware because ads are more profitable but it can still happen. It's understandable that new technologies have more serious bugs than decades old ones and hopefully it will be fixed in UEFI soon, but this shows why you have too be careful with new technologies if you are an early adpoter.
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