Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

flightglobal.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

221–230 of 253 posts

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#221

Post by notahacker »

fjarlq wrote: post #136
robomartin wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mostly in jest: "I think there is a world market for maybe five computers." -- Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943 "There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home." -- Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977 "The concept is interesting and well-formed, but in order to earn better than a 'C,' the idea must be feasible." -- A Yale University management professor in re…

The Ken Olsen quote is taken way out of context. He was thoroughly aware of personal computers in 1977. He was referring to behemoth home automation systems: http://www.snopes.com/quotes/kenolsen.asp The quote attributed to Lord Kelvin is a significant paraphrasing of a letter he wrote in 1896: http://zapatopi.net/kelvin/papers/letters.html#baden-powell

In 1902 Kelvin was more blunt about (i) balloons being more promising than the idea of aeroplanes and (ii) neither of them having any viable future http://zapatopi.net/kelvin/papers/interview_aeronautics_and_...

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#222

Post by snowwrestler »

fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #130
snowwrestler wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or they are inserting themselves into the news cycle on this story for purposes other than strictly engineering. I don't know if that's what is happening here, but it is certainly not an uncommon PR strategy.

You think Musk is grandstanding in hopes that consumers will demand SpaceX rockets for commercial airline travel instead of Boeing 787's? Well, duh, I'd take a ride in a rocket over another boring commercial flight any day.

Let's just say I don't think Musk emailed Flightglobal because he couldn't figure out how to get in touch with anyone at Boeing. It was not a mistake that his statement went to the press.

I do think Musk is a brilliant innovator, but that does not preclude him from also having an aggressive PR strategy.

FWIW, Boeing is a direct competitor to SpaceX for private launch contracts.

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#223

Post by hyperbovine »

Confusion wrote: post #169
robomartin wrote: post #68

While I can't dispute anything that is being said I think it is unfortunate that this is playing out the way it is. I can't dispute it because there's virtually no reliable publicly-available information on the design of this battery pack. I think it is unbecoming of an engineer or scientist, particularly of prominence, to voice such opinions without access to design data from the source. Before I could even begin to…

Boeing batteries are overheating. Tesla batteries are not overheating. There are sufficiently similar requirements on their performance and safety that any layman can conclude there is something wrong with Boeings design. The problem here is that the engineers at Boeing are not clowns. The problem here is that you think that is what is being alleged. It isn't: an enormous and old company like Boeing can have an entre…

In the specific context of engineering, the only thing I have ever heard about Boeing's "entrenched culture" is that they are obsessed with safety. A Boeing airliner is a modern miracle of overengineering.

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#224

Post by antiterra »

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #217
antiterra wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you count an automotive journalist whose face was significantly damaged in a rollover accident[1] "the auto industry," sure. And maybe you do, his magazine ran ads from auto companies, but it's a pretty cold dismissal on your part. Possibly an incorrect one as well-- considering that he refused to back down from statements that angered various automotive corporations at the cost of ad revenue. [1] http://en.wikipe…

The only reference to this that I can find is an article from just a few years ago in which Davis argues that Nader's focus on the Corvair had the effect of delaying the auto industry shift to more aerodynamic cars with front-wheel drives.

Try the Criticism section of the Unsafe At Any Speed article, i.e. the link you read well enough to translate into a snarky one-liner.

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#225

Post by jlgreco »

arethuza wrote: post #196
jlgreco wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do batteries start working differently when they are placed in planes?

Well, they might do - temperature, pressure etc.

Eh, I can't imagine either Prof Sadoway or Musk is only familiar with batteries at room temperature at sea level.

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#226

Post by rbanffy »

epo wrote: post #189
ubernostrum wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it amusing that you are one-sidedly complaining about appeals to authority when so many comments, on both sides, in this thread boil down to "my preferred expert is better than your preferred expert".

Upvoted, to me Musk is being a publicity whore and scoring cheap hits over Boeing. I.e. his comments do not help us in advancing our understanding so can only be intended to publicise his own company's products.

Musk being a publicity whore has no relation to the safety of the batteries. The fact they catch fire during normal flight operation demonstrate they are not.

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#227

Post by podperson »

robomartin wrote: post #68

While I can't dispute anything that is being said I think it is unfortunate that this is playing out the way it is. I can't dispute it because there's virtually no reliable publicly-available information on the design of this battery pack. I think it is unbecoming of an engineer or scientist, particularly of prominence, to voice such opinions without access to design data from the source. Before I could even begin to…

So Musk lays down his ideas for good battery design and is backed up by a guy from MIT. Seems fairly solid.

Boeing guy says something like "I design battery cells not to fail, then assume they will. I then design battery so if one cell fails others won't. Then I assume they will and design for that."

What we know is that the cells fail, then batteries fail, then noxious smoke blows into the cabin, so if what he says is true his designs have failed in three different ways. Seems to me Musk has more credibility here.

Now, is this guy a clown? No -- he's probably a smart, competent guy who is doing what he's required to do given the situation he's in, while he's probably just been in ten meetings where people screamed "I told you so!" at each other.

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#228

Post by RyanMcGreal »

antiterra wrote: post #224
RyanMcGreal wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only reference to this that I can find is an article from just a few years ago in which Davis argues that Nader's focus on the Corvair had the effect of delaying the auto industry shift to more aerodynamic cars with front-wheel drives.

Try the Criticism section of the Unsafe At Any Speed article, i.e. the link you read well enough to translate into a snarky one-liner.

For some reason your comments are coming across with a lot of hostility. I'm not sure why, but my knowledge of Nader's book comes from having read about it when I was younger and took an interest in the topic. I'm happy to be proven wrong about the attempt by the auto industry to smear Nader - and his success at proving this attempt and defending his thesis - but I'm confused about why this discussion is starting to feel personal.

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#229

Post by MysticFear »

eduardordm wrote: post #9

Elon seems to really want to get involved in this. Make no mistake, Boeing and SpaceX are fierce competitors for government contracts with very dubious selection processes. I'm saying this because he is a businessman, not an engineer. He seems to be getting a lot of information about the 787s batteries inner workings when the number of airplanes and suppliers are very limited. Edit: I'm not trying to be cynical, but…

"Desire to help Boeing is real & am corresponding w 787 chief engineer." https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/295162137297428480

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#230

Post by jlgreco »

jzwinck wrote: post #194
niels_olson wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's like claiming to know what happened with a race horse that died clear across the country because you know race horses. Wouldn't you first have to see the veterinarian's records on that horse as well as such things as dietary and other data before really being able to say anything at all. If the differential has 5 items, and the most likely is most likely by 99% just on demographics, then it's going to take a l…

What else? Shorting. Chemical impurities (less likely). Failed peripherals like fans (hopefully less likely to have this result, due to thermal cut-offs). Improper assembly. Those are my next candidates anyway, after a thermal design defect as you said (which is fairly broad).

Of course all of those potential problems would be compounded by having large cells with poor isolation.
Post reply on HN