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Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

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Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#111

Post by pdonis »

rgbrenner wrote: post #97
robomartin wrote: post #68

While I can't dispute anything that is being said I think it is unfortunate that this is playing out the way it is. I can't dispute it because there's virtually no reliable publicly-available information on the design of this battery pack. I think it is unbecoming of an engineer or scientist, particularly of prominence, to voice such opinions without access to design data from the source. Before I could even begin to…

I've said it before... Musk just wants attention. The investigators looking into this have already said they haven't found a problem with the batteries.. and they are turning their attention to the electrical system. So who are you going to believe. Musk, who has no access to the details of these batteries, or the investigators who have access to everything and are looking at and testing these batteries themselves. h…

The investigators looking into this have already said they haven't found a problem with the batteries.. and they are turning their attention to the electrical system.

You're missing a key point: they are turning their attention to the electrical system that controls how the batteries charge and discharge. That means that, even if the batteries themselves have no design problems per se, their failure modes under an overcharge condition are highly relevant. Which is exactly what Musk and Prof. Sadoway are critiquing: they're not saying the batteries were manufactured badly or designed badly for normal operation; they're saying the batteries were not properly designed to cope with the failure mode that the electrical control system is suspected of inducing.

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#112

Post by pdonis »

willis77 wrote: post #83
robomartin wrote: post #68

While I can't dispute anything that is being said I think it is unfortunate that this is playing out the way it is. I can't dispute it because there's virtually no reliable publicly-available information on the design of this battery pack. I think it is unbecoming of an engineer or scientist, particularly of prominence, to voice such opinions without access to design data from the source. Before I could even begin to…

Furthermore, hindsight is 20/20. It's easy to rush in after the fact and make up reasons (even if those reasons are legit) to explain what is retrospectively obvious. Where was this warning before the incidents? As you stated, it's completely opportunistic and out of line to make this kind of claim without the due diligence.

Where was this warning before the incidents?

Where was the evidence that there was anything to warn about before the incidents? Everybody trusted Boeing to have a robust battery design. Now it appears that at least some aspect of it was not robust.

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#113

Post by snowwrestler »

rohern wrote: post #100
robomartin wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be very interested in what they are saying if --and only if-- they had access to Boeing and FAA design and test data. You have to remember that the FAA had to approve these subsystems as well. I don't have any first-hand experience on just how detailed (or not) this certification process might be. Once again, how could anyone say anything at all without looking at data. To make a really dumb analogy, it's like cl…

Your points are common sense. You can therefore assume that other men, including the men you are criticizing, know them. Given this, and given that they are speaking publicly, I would wager that they have more access to data than you presume.

Or they are inserting themselves into the news cycle on this story for purposes other than strictly engineering.

I don't know if that's what is happening here, but it is certainly not an uncommon PR strategy.

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#114

Post by accoinstereo »

robomartin wrote: post #68

While I can't dispute anything that is being said I think it is unfortunate that this is playing out the way it is. I can't dispute it because there's virtually no reliable publicly-available information on the design of this battery pack. I think it is unbecoming of an engineer or scientist, particularly of prominence, to voice such opinions without access to design data from the source. Before I could even begin to…

Sure, you'd act real careful to protect the sanctity of your word.

But bear in mind this man leads two multimillion dollar companies. I can imagine the PR/marketing opportunity was difficult to pass up. Even if further data proves his assessment of Boeing's configuration ill-advised, a majority of impressions will remain in his favor. He may have even nipped any comparisons between Boeing's "dangerous" technology and Tesla in the bud.

A reader might walk away from the story with the idea that Tesla engineers are more skilled than Boeing engineers. Call it what you want, but that's a helluva branding opportunity.

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#115

Post by monochromatic »

msandford wrote: post #75
robomartin wrote: post #68

While I can't dispute anything that is being said I think it is unfortunate that this is playing out the way it is. I can't dispute it because there's virtually no reliable publicly-available information on the design of this battery pack. I think it is unbecoming of an engineer or scientist, particularly of prominence, to voice such opinions without access to design data from the source. Before I could even begin to…

Even if the engineers at Boing are REALLY good (and that's not guaranteed by any means) then you've still go the subcontractor problem to deal with. Boeing didn't design, engineer, fabricate, test and qualify these batteries in-house. Saying that they have advanced degrees from prestigious institutions makes it less likely that they have made mistakes is a non-starter. There ARE PROBLEMS with the batteries FULL STOP.…

> There ARE PROBLEMS with the batteries FULL STOP

Because Elon Musk says so? Do you base your trust in him on his degrees?

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#116

Post by snowwrestler »

rpm4321 wrote: post #47
eduardordm wrote: post #9

Elon seems to really want to get involved in this. Make no mistake, Boeing and SpaceX are fierce competitors for government contracts with very dubious selection processes. I'm saying this because he is a businessman, not an engineer. He seems to be getting a lot of information about the 787s batteries inner workings when the number of airplanes and suppliers are very limited. Edit: I'm not trying to be cynical, but…

"I'm saying this because he is a businessman, not an engineer." Musk is the Chief Designer at Space-X, Product Architect at Tesla Motors, and a member of the Stanford University Engineering Advisory Board. He has previously served as a member of the United States National Academy of Sciences Aeronautics and Space Engineering Board. - Wikipedia.

Elon Musk is not an engineer. He does not have an engineering degree and does not hold an engineering license.

I'm a huge fan of the guy, but he is not an engineer.

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#117

Post by InclinedPlane »

robomartin wrote: post #68

While I can't dispute anything that is being said I think it is unfortunate that this is playing out the way it is. I can't dispute it because there's virtually no reliable publicly-available information on the design of this battery pack. I think it is unbecoming of an engineer or scientist, particularly of prominence, to voice such opinions without access to design data from the source. Before I could even begin to…

Respect?

What respect is due to a design that puts people's lives in danger?

Yes, respect the engineers, and make sure to criticize the design and not the engineer, but please criticize the ever loving fuck out of the design.

This isn't about corporate pride here. This is about lives.

My life. Your life. Your family's lives. Everyone who flies in a plane is potentially endangered by faulty aircraft designs.

So please, Mr. Musk, and any other engineer who can level meaningful criticisms at any design that has significant human safety implications, make your voices heard.

When Ralph Nader does this sort of thing he is lauded, I don't think Musk's criticisms should be viewed in any different light.

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#118

Post by snowwrestler »

wnoise wrote: post #45
supercanuck wrote: post #37

The public doesn't see this as Larry Ellison criticizing Bill Gates, but that is essentially what is happening.

What do you mean by this analogy?

One fierce competitor in an industry publicly criticizing another. (Their motives may not be completely pure.)

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#119

Post by MysticFear »

venus wrote: post #103
msandford wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if the engineers at Boing are REALLY good (and that's not guaranteed by any means) then you've still go the subcontractor problem to deal with. Boeing didn't design, engineer, fabricate, test and qualify these batteries in-house. Saying that they have advanced degrees from prestigious institutions makes it less likely that they have made mistakes is a non-starter. There ARE PROBLEMS with the batteries FULL STOP.…

> Boeing didn't design, engineer, fabricate, test and qualify these batteries in-house. Are you implying Tesla does? http://www.teslamotors.com/about/press/releases/panasonic-en...

"Panasonic and Tesla together have developed a next-generation battery cell based on this nickel chemistry and optimized specifically for electric vehicle quality and life."

Tesla and Panasonic designed it together. Panasonic is just the manufacturer. I would be curious if Boeing engineers were also helping to design the internals of their battery.

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#120

Post by tzs »

robomartin wrote: post #98
hnwh wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadoway is one of the world's leading geniuses in this field.

Mostly in jest: "I think there is a world market for maybe five computers." -- Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943 "There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home." -- Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977 "The concept is interesting and well-formed, but in order to earn better than a 'C,' the idea must be feasible." -- A Yale University management professor in re…

There is no evidence for the Gates alleged quote. Same for the Watson alleged quote.

As far as Smith and FedEx goes, according to Smith himself he wrote one paper that touched on the idea while an undergraduate. He doesn't remember what his grade was. The "C" notion came about, he says, because a reported asked him what his grade was and he said "I don’t know, probably made my usual C". [1]

[1] http://campusentrepreneurship.wordpress.com/2007/05/06/inter...

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