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Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

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Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#71

Post by oasisbob »

robomartin wrote: post #68

While I can't dispute anything that is being said I think it is unfortunate that this is playing out the way it is. I can't dispute it because there's virtually no reliable publicly-available information on the design of this battery pack. I think it is unbecoming of an engineer or scientist, particularly of prominence, to voice such opinions without access to design data from the source. Before I could even begin to…

I could not imagine the engineers at Boeing slapping together a battery pack for something like the 787 project without years of work and testing.

Assuming you're right in regards to the skills of their engineers, wouldn't it only be relevant if Boeing designed the battery pack themselves?

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#72

Post by jessaustin »

itp wrote: post #65
digikata wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is a Professional Engineer certification relevant here? All the PEs I've met work in the civil engineering field.

Sounds like you only know people with Civil PEs, then. There are different examinations and qualifications for different disciplines. Source: my wife is a Naval Architecture PE.

Yeah that's the only kind of PE I've met. As a profession they do not impress. These guys are incapable of imagining anything they haven't done before a hundred times, let alone doing it and putting their seal on it.

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#74

Post by jessaustin »

oasisbob wrote: post #71
robomartin wrote: post #68

While I can't dispute anything that is being said I think it is unfortunate that this is playing out the way it is. I can't dispute it because there's virtually no reliable publicly-available information on the design of this battery pack. I think it is unbecoming of an engineer or scientist, particularly of prominence, to voice such opinions without access to design data from the source. Before I could even begin to…

I could not imagine the engineers at Boeing slapping together a battery pack for something like the 787 project without years of work and testing. Assuming you're right in regards to the skills of their engineers, wouldn't it only be relevant if Boeing designed the battery pack themselves?

Anything that goes into a new model of jumbo jet should have reams of test documentation. Multiple people at Boeing would have examined and approved this stuff. If they were fooled they shouldn't have been.

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#75

Post by msandford »

robomartin wrote: post #68

While I can't dispute anything that is being said I think it is unfortunate that this is playing out the way it is. I can't dispute it because there's virtually no reliable publicly-available information on the design of this battery pack. I think it is unbecoming of an engineer or scientist, particularly of prominence, to voice such opinions without access to design data from the source. Before I could even begin to…

Even if the engineers at Boing are REALLY good (and that's not guaranteed by any means) then you've still go the subcontractor problem to deal with. Boeing didn't design, engineer, fabricate, test and qualify these batteries in-house.

Saying that they have advanced degrees from prestigious institutions makes it less likely that they have made mistakes is a non-starter. There ARE PROBLEMS with the batteries FULL STOP. The degrees of those involved make no difference anymore. How seriously they take things doesn't matter.

I don't see that any Tesla cars have caught on fire according to Google (probably not accurate) but in terms of any metric you'd like to see, they're doing much better. Fires per passenger mile, fires per car per year, etc.

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#76

Post by [deleted] »

starpilot wrote: post #63
chernevik wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I shouldn't be surprised if there aren't several people within Boeing with exactly the right expertise. Whether they were identified and listened to by management is a separate question. If Musk is right (IANA Battery Guy), I would presume there are cost / design trade-offs involved. And some exec had to evaluate those against safety issues. Those are engineering decisions, they're also business decisions. If the exe…

I'm an aeromechanical engineer, not an electrical one, but I suspect the fewer-cells design was chosen to save weight. Many unconventional design decisions in aerospace (everything with holes, novel materials which trickle down to cars and golf clubs) are driven by the need to reduce weight.

[deleted]

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#77

Post by amcaskill »

Osmium wrote: post #7
Camillo wrote: post #3

This is a very smart move by Musk from a PR point of view. By accusing Boeing's batteries of being fundamentally unsafe, he garners the maximum amount of trust from people who are concerned about battery safety, so that, when he immediately follows up with an explanation of why this couldn't happen on a Tesla, those very people are already leaning towards believing him. This goes over much better than attempting to d…

> This is a very smart move by Musk from a PR point of view. This is an awful PR move if he's wrong. I hope he's sure.

It's a smart PR move in either scenario. It's unlikely this will matter if he is wrong.

If he is correct, this will become an even larger main stream news story and there is a good chance that his prescience will be picked up and included in how it is reported.

More importantly, if this becomes a major story, he has preempted the inevitable look at other products (tesla) which include li-ion batteries by describing the distinction between the two. This could become a major shitstorm that Tesla gets rolled into but by making this statement he's getting out in front of it and shaping how that story will be told.

If he is wrong, the batteries are fine and there is no story.

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#78

Post by fudged71 »

michaelkscott wrote: post #19
richardjordan wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that Elon Musk, a physicist by education, is indeed an engineer and was very hands on in the engineering processes at SpaceX, so I'd assume he wasn't out of the technical loop that led to design decisions at Tesla.

Maybe a little OT but: Can you be considered an "ist" by having just a BS degree. That is, physicist, computer scientist, etc... If no, what is the requirement? Masters or PhD?

Maybe a little OT but:

By law, no one can practise as a "professional engineer" in Canada or the United States without a licence. The BS is just one part of becoming a professional engineer.

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#79

Post by jessaustin »

joezydeco wrote: post #64
lostlogin wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's interesting - why are the batteries onboard and not ground equipment? Obviously restarting a stalled engine would be handy, but is this something that actually happens? And if it is, couldn't the running jets provide the power somehow? I seem to remember that some old WW2 prop aircraft had ground equipment requirements to start them from cold (power or warmed air or something?) Obviously this isn't an area I k…

I found a Boeing technical publication that discusses the power architecture of the 787 and how the battery comes into play. Kind of interesting: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/qtr_4... Page 4 says this: "The power source for APU starting may be the airplane battery, a ground power source, or an engine-driven generator. The power source for engine starting may be the APU generators, engine-dri…

So the battery seems to be very important when you're somewhere with no ground generator.

Like in the sky? After your engines have stopped for some reason? That could be exciting!

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#80

Post by Retric »

bigiain wrote: post #54
coryrc wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla's /cells/ are also "fundamentally unsafe", but they make the /batteries/ as safe as possible. Fundamentally _safe_ would be LiFePO4 chemistry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery Longer lifespan and significantly cheaper than cobalt, manganese, etc; but 20% lower specific mass. Survives having a nail driven through a fully-charged cell with only some smoke and a small bit of flame -- not…

"Tesla's /cells/ are also "fundamentally unsafe", but they make the /batteries/ as safe as possible." While it's certainly true that the Li-ion chemistry used in the Tesla's batteries are flammable, keep in mind the current common alternative to those potentially burning cells is carrying round a metal or plastic tank with 10 or more gallons of gasoline in it. If there weren't a 100+ year history of people doing just…

Gasoline is not all that dangerous in the vast majority of failure modes. Li-ion is both corrosive and easier to set on fire which is a real issue for hybrids and aircraft.
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