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The English-Likeness Monster Stalks a New Generation of Programmers

raganwald.posterous.com

21–30 of 78 posts

Re: The English-Likeness Monster Stalks a New Generation of Programmers

#21
post #15
post #8

I think PowerShell suffers from this issue, except it was defined by people that speak English as a second language.

You're going to have to explain what on Earth you mean. PowerShell just reads (and writes) like someone forced Perl and .NET to have a child. AppleScript, Inform 7, Smalltalk-72, and other "English" languages dream of being in the same boat as PowerShell in terms of consistency, readability, or power.

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Re: The English-Likeness Monster Stalks a New Generation of Programmers

#22

Mathematicians have been developing more abstract and concise symbols for hundreds of years and it looks nothing like English or any other natural language. If I had to guess I would say that future programming languages will look more like mathematics than anything else.

Why wait for the future, you can program in APL or (I recommend this one) J today!

Have a look at quicksort in J: quicksort=: (($:@(#[)) ({~ ?@#)) ^: (1Cute, isn't it?

I was playing with J for some time - a few weekends maybe - I managed to get to the level of conscious incompetency, which is a lot for such a foreign language and then stopped, I just had enough. J is certainly very powerful, consistent and logical language and I believe that after some years I would be able to read and comprehend J's code almost as fast as any other language from the get go. I'm just not convinced it's worth it.

Put another way: I certainly hope that future programming languages will not look more like J. And you can, of course, grab a J system and use it today if you want.

Re: The English-Likeness Monster Stalks a New Generation of Programmers

#23
post #19

> "It's far simpler to learn a precise, unambiguous language and manipulate the parser directly." Since no one else has mentioned it yet, Lojban [1] seems like the perfect candidate for this. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban

But since nobody speaks Lojban natively (and probably never will (I am aware there exist a few people who speak Esperanto natively)), you might as well learn a programming language. Both Lojban and Python will be second languages to someone, and Python (or any other programming language) is probably easier to reason about for the types of things we use programming languages for.

Re: The English-Likeness Monster Stalks a New Generation of Programmers

#24
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People often think of DSLs as a way of making a concise, expressive view of the domain look like English. See, for example, RSpec. (I guess what I'm really saying is that you're right, but you're saying something else, raganwald is right too.)

I'm having a variant of the Baader-Meinhof phenomenon where I start seeing something everywhere after writing about it ( http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5056667 ).

I personally like how cucumber tests look exactly like english but it's up to the test writer to explain (through the writing of "step definitions") what each type of phase means (in actual ruby) and then when you combine them you can perform any number of _domain-specific_ tasks. Kinda neat. and a halfway between actually writing a DSL and explaining to the ruby runtime how to interpret a subset of english for this domain.

Re: The English-Likeness Monster Stalks a New Generation of Programmers

#25

Programming languages all posses one thing that most (perhaps all) natural languages lack: a 1:1 equivalence with some mathematical construct, or an abstraction backed-up by such a construct. In order for a natural language to be useful for programming computers the language must be completely describable in mathematical terms.

Dare I say, NewSpeak?

Re: The English-Likeness Monster Stalks a New Generation of Programmers

#26
post #19

> "It's far simpler to learn a precise, unambiguous language and manipulate the parser directly." Since no one else has mentioned it yet, Lojban [1] seems like the perfect candidate for this. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban

Oh wow, I think I'm falling in love with a language.

http://www.ainewsletter.com/newsletters/aix_0503.htm#loglan http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/Play/lojban.html

Re: The English-Likeness Monster Stalks a New Generation of Programmers

#28

It makes me think of MUDs, specifically my once-upon-a-time favorite, Dragonrealms. It had the usual "command direct-object" syntactical format common to MUDs, but it became an infamous problem to wrestle with the parser to find the correct "obvious" action. > put amulet on drawer > put amulet in drawer > put amulet behind drawer > place amulet on drawer > give amulet to drawer > push amulet to drawer > show amulet t…

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Re: The English-Likeness Monster Stalks a New Generation of Programmers

#29
Of all the languages I've used, Python comes closest to English-like while still being a language I can enjoy programming in. I seriously doubt it's possible (absent strong AI) to get much further. Also, Guido's probably a once-per-generation genius, so he can get away with more than we can.

Re: The English-Likeness Monster Stalks a New Generation of Programmers

#30

This is a talk by Guy Steele and Richard Gabriel you might like it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nii1n8PYLrc It was beautiful.

Thanks for posting that - will watch it through when I have time. I skimmed it and hit on Perligata - amazing

http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~damian/papers/HTML/Perligata....

        maximum inquementum tum biguttam egresso scribe.  

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