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How the EVE Online Servers Deal with a 3,000 Person Battle

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Re: How the EVE Online Servers Deal with a 3,000 Person Battle

#31
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eve isn't sharded in the common MMO sense.

No, but they talked about disconnecting the battle from the surrounding solar system, and the negative consequences. Essentially sharding.

Actually they do not disconnect the battle from the solar system the battle is in.

What they said is they run many solar systems on one server. During a major battle they migrate those other solar systems to different servers so that the server only has to deal with the one system.

So in a sense, yes, each solar system is its own shard.

Re: How the EVE Online Servers Deal with a 3,000 Person Battle

#32

This was particularly interesting for me. I've already built a scalable MMO server architecture in Erlang, which hosts all players on one world, using server nodes that can be moved between machines. I calculate that my server architecture can handle up to 10,000 moving players in a local area. That's characters, not EVE-style ships (characters are heavier). If anyone is interested in talking about this, helping, or…

Have you got more details? Links?

I haven't been public about my process of building the server or its details (I just don't have time), but the game is at: http://firstearthgame.com

Someday I'll make time to blog about the server.

Re: How the EVE Online Servers Deal with a 3,000 Person Battle

#33
post #17
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That feeling of "My ship! My beautiful, beautiful ship!" is offset by the fact that major alliances tend to have strong reimbursement programs. If your dreadnought goes boom in a fleet op, you get the cost of another hull and gear, and get to draw on corp/alliance stores as well. Otherwise, they'd never get their supercap pilots out of the hanger :)

What would be the point of having all this cool stuff if no one else even gets to see it and you don't get to use it?

Whipping it out when there's a major battle going on, becoming the star and centerpiece (or one of them) of it, :p.

Re: How the EVE Online Servers Deal with a 3,000 Person Battle

#34
post #5
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's like each solar system is a VM, and they can't move their VMs to a new physical server without disconnecting all clients. And all of their physical servers are at 100% load all of the time? I wasn't sure how to interpret that either. I've always been a bit surprised that the the backend systems for these MMOs aren't a bit more flexible. Though, EvE did launch nearly 10 years ago and it has never had a huge numb…

I wouldn't call over 400,000 players '[not] a huge number'. It's the 2nd or 3rd most popular paid-subscription MMO.

The specific, relative number of subscribers is not the point.

That said, I wouldn't call something huge when there are comparables (even if it's just one or two) which dwarf it and others which (at some point) exceeded it.

Re: How the EVE Online Servers Deal with a 3,000 Person Battle

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

400k+ active players IS a huge number. Specially considering they are in the same logical server. Other MMO's handle this by having copies of the world and splitting the population - which is the same approach used by Ultima Online back in 1997. So actually, EVE is way ahead of the rest, technology-wise.

>So actually, EVE is way ahead of the rest, technology-wise. That doesn't seem like a sensible comparison considering how much the gameplay of EvE differs from the typical MMO. In any case, I'm not making a dig at EvE, rather acknowledging that the game has had a long life and has never been a multi-million subscriber behemoth. Therefore, they might make concessions, or allowed the persistence of previous limitations…

That doesn't seem like a sensible comparison considering how much the gameplay of EvE differs from the typical MMO.

The "typical" MMO doesn't even try to handle large populations. The use of separate servers, population caps and login queues are how just about every one else deals with congestion problems.

Even from your second link there is the quote "Working with IBM, the EVE server cluster is maintained in London and is currently the largest supercomputer employed in the gaming industry." Sure that is from 2008, but newer MMOs are built using the same overall server architecture you saw back in the days of Ultima Online.

Re: How the EVE Online Servers Deal with a 3,000 Person Battle

#36
Fun facts: This fight was between the Honeybadger Coalition (HBC) and the Clusterfuck Coalition (CFC). The core of the Honeybadger Coalition is TEST Alliance, and the core of TEST Alliance is Dreddit, the "original" Reddit-based corp (there are / have been several, some of which predate Dreddit and have since folded).

HBC routed the CFC, which has Goonswarm as its core, which is organized around the Something Awful forums.

TEST Alliance was nurtured by the CFC for a long time, splitting off only in the past year to forge a more independent identity. As such, the hostilities between these old friends is hard to gauge. At this point, the presumption is that it's all in good fun. But that may change.

Re: How the EVE Online Servers Deal with a 3,000 Person Battle

#37
post #8

The report of the battle they link to ( http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/01/28/eve-online-battle-asakai/ ) is even more fascinating to me. You spend hours and hours of effort in order to get a ship, and one way of thinking about them is as the time spent to earn them compressed into 3d form. Unlike (most) other MMO's, battles actually destroy things. So in that youtube clip, you're watching years and years of effort getti…

One thing to note, there is a major typo which makes the history between these two coalitions confusing.

Original > Years before, the Test Alliance was part of the HoneyBadgers in a hulking super-coalition. Seeking to carve out a piece of the galaxy for its own, a large portion of Test broke away from the accord to form HoneyBadgers, an independently operating group still pledging allegiance to Test but not to GoonSwarm.

Years before, TEST was part of the Clusters (really: Clusterfuck Coalition, aka CFC). Only in the past year did TEST split off from the CFC and form the Honeybadger Coalition (HBC). TEST and Goons are old friends, so it will be very interesting to see how the current hostilities shake out.

Re: How the EVE Online Servers Deal with a 3,000 Person Battle

#38

It's like each solar system is a VM, and they can't move their VMs to a new physical server without disconnecting all clients. And all of their physical servers are at 100% load all of the time? Oh, I guess it's 100% utilization, not 100% load. As in, they don't spin down servers to save power during off-hours I guess. The time dilation is a neat solution to the server load problem, but it's sooo annoying as a player…

Two main solutions (given that the article mentions that they have huge machines already):-

A) Allow a single solar system to span multiple machines. Very hard, especially if the server software isn't architected for this. Retrofitting this can be nigh on impossible.

B) Have a few huge machines that can be used to host scenarios like this and, more importantly, have a way of migrating users over to the huge machine seemlessly.

The latter can be done but it's tricky, especially if transferring game state between instances of the server is not simple (I'm not talking about transferring the VM itself with something like vMotion). It comes down to:-

1) Being able to make the bigger machine act as a temporary proxy pushing connections data back to the smaller machine.

2) Having a way of telling clients to make a new connection to the bigger machine and, once that connection is made (and the data is being proxied to the smaller machine) cut the connection to the smaller machine. Users see no loss of service or reconnects at all.

3) Once all clients are now being proxied by the bigger machine; pause and transfer the game state from the smaller machine to the big machine and then continue. Obviously it works best if a chunk of state can be transferred in the background and then the final transfer (and pause) is as short as possible in order to transfer over the bang up to the minute state.

Option (A) is always the proverbial "In v2 of the server we'll do it a completely different way..."

Re: How the EVE Online Servers Deal with a 3,000 Person Battle

#39
post #8

The report of the battle they link to ( http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/01/28/eve-online-battle-asakai/ ) is even more fascinating to me. You spend hours and hours of effort in order to get a ship, and one way of thinking about them is as the time spent to earn them compressed into 3d form. Unlike (most) other MMO's, battles actually destroy things. So in that youtube clip, you're watching years and years of effort getti…

Nobody actually "earns" titans. It's simply not something that an individual would ever fly. Titans belong to the biggest corporations, alliances, and coalitions, and are essentially floating cities that support fleets of other ships. They're a strategic resource that individual players would never use. In the case of this particular battle, CFC lost 3 titans. This alone is several thousand dollars worth of real-worl…

If they have so many Titans, why not bring out ten of them and sweep the battle?

Re: How the EVE Online Servers Deal with a 3,000 Person Battle

#40
post #5
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's like each solar system is a VM, and they can't move their VMs to a new physical server without disconnecting all clients. And all of their physical servers are at 100% load all of the time? I wasn't sure how to interpret that either. I've always been a bit surprised that the the backend systems for these MMOs aren't a bit more flexible. Though, EvE did launch nearly 10 years ago and it has never had a huge numb…

I wouldn't call over 400,000 players '[not] a huge number'. It's the 2nd or 3rd most popular paid-subscription MMO.

As you can see here http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility , there is about 44k people online at this point, probably a bit less since most people have more than one account.

That seems like a fairly substantial amount of users in a single world. Is there any other game world with this many active users in a single world?

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