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Pixels don’t care

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Re: Pixels don’t care

#61

Post by kstenerud »

kneath wrote: post #43
FireBeyond wrote: post #13

What a strange claim. "Looking back", he can't help but feel discriminated against due to his height. It couldn't possibly be because of his "no formal eduction, no experience with any big clients", could it?

That would be a great argument if my peers had formal education or experience with big clients. None of them did. There is no "point" to be made by my post, rather a description of two vastly different ways I was treated for the same work I was doing during the same point in my life — one online, one in person.

All the same, you should be careful about using deductive reasoning in this way. You're assuming that the only criteria upon which you were measured were formal education and experience with big clients, but what about how you struck them emotionally? Did you have that trustworthy/hardworking/whatever air about you that perhaps some of your colleagues had? Did your mode of dress impress them as much as for other candidates? Had the interviewer seen one-too-many people with the exact same qualifications as you, and thus was looking for a little something more that he didn't search for with the other hires before he got desensitized?

I'm not saying that it WASN'T height discrimination; I'm just saying that you should be careful about concluding such things so easily.

Re: Pixels don’t care

#62

Post by HCIdivision17 »

kerryfalk wrote: post #30

? I, too, am short. I'm 5'6". I have always worked on teams with people much older than me (seems like a 15-20 year average). When I was in my early 20s and in sales selling high dollar value equipment I recognized that my age wasn't going to help. It took a few moments to dispel that once I began talking with someone as I just needed to overcome the view that I was inexperienced (As that would be associated with my…

I suspect he wasn't skilled in overcoming his appearance and projecting himself yet.

I had a similar experience to yours, perhaps, but in engineering. Most of my coworkers were at least 25 years older (and one good friend calls me grandson). It took a while to learn to project "I know what I'm talking about and can prove it" without coming off as pretentious. And I've had people note the change.

Perhaps like your experience, I've learned to establish myself quickly, and if I lose face it's certainly not because of my age.

... The first time. I've been very careful to be cautious, since it can easily _become_ a problem. In a management group, it's easy to lose face fast if someone doesn't follow a nuanced argument (which is admittedly a rookie mistake in such a setting). Then you're scrambling to correct the spoken typo and your already lost. I'm usually bull-headed enough that's not a problem, but meekness can be a stumbling block, and I suspect that may have tripped up the author (or perhaps perceived meekness of eager youth?), and that fear alone can pressure a person into feeling unfairly judged.

Just my $2.00 on playing devil's advocate.

Re: Pixels don’t care

#63

Post by russell »

mhartl wrote: post #57
morisy wrote: post #3

I had the totally same experience with early online communities (Everything2, Slashdot), and for a long time made a conscious effort of keeping my avatar off the Internet. It's a little utopian, yes, but being able to deal with people based on their ideas, ideals, and quality of work, and develop fast friendships without ever being aware of so much (Great line: "How could the internet know you were gay? 80 years old?…

On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog—or at least, they didn't until Facebook came along. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f8/Internet_dog.j...

"On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog" is an adage which began as the caption of a cartoon by Peter Steiner published by The New Yorker on July 5, 1993. (From Wikipedia.)

At least they ought to give credit.

Re: Pixels don’t care

#64

Post by dhaivatpandya »

jakejake wrote: post #52
dhaivatpandya wrote: post #25

I totally agree with the "too young" thing. I'm 15 and been freelancing since I was 12, and this gets in the way all the time . People try to take advantage of you once they realize that you're young(er) than most in the field.

I think it's fantastic that you're here, freelancing and making money. Under the age of 14, though, I think US companies could potentially get into legal trouble hiring you. Under the age of 18 there are laws regarding maximum hours and what hours you can work (so not to interfere with school, etc). I would agree that you should be paid based on your skill, though, not age.

I mostly worked with small companies in India (only a few projects) before I was 14. And, I am working nowhere close to the amount which even comes close to max. hours.

Re: Pixels don’t care

#65

Post by dhaivatpandya »

geon wrote: post #58
dhaivatpandya wrote: post #25

I totally agree with the "too young" thing. I'm 15 and been freelancing since I was 12, and this gets in the way all the time . People try to take advantage of you once they realize that you're young(er) than most in the field.

Unless you are a prodigy, you simply haven't had the time yet to become really good at anything. Supposedly it takes 10.000 hours or so of exercise, which would be 9 years at 3 hours daily. I'm not trying to push you down, and anyone not paying you what your work is worth is definitely taking advantage of you.

Very true. But, I don't think that applies to everything. I don't think it takes 10,000 hours of practice to design a decent Wordpress theme. In fact, I would say that most college graduates (even from top universities) would still be quite far away from 10,000 hours in a specific domain of CS/SE, yet, companies do hire them.

Re: Pixels don’t care

#66

Post by austenallred »

I started out as a 13-year-old entrepreneur selling stuff on eBay (which was pretty new at the time). There was a loophole when they first opened where you could sign up under someone else's name and switch all of the records over to your name; that way you didn't have to be 18 to register.

I first grew to love the Internet as the only real meritocracy I experienced in life. No one knew I was 13. When I talked to people in person I would get a pat on the head and a "you'll do great some day," but the little eBay company I had started was taken very seriously. It's still around today, and it makes just over $2 million/year in net profit (not on eBay any more).

While the Internet is no longer as anonymous, and I am no longer with the aforementioned company, I believe product still speaks for itself. While it's true that investors may be looking for a dropout Stanford grad student, if you create something people love you can grow a company regardless of what anyone thinks about you as a person. Hell, I raised half a million dollars as an 18-year-old kid, not because I looked or acted like the quintessential entrepreneur, but because I could show numbers. If you can show someone, "Here's a black box where you put in $1 and $10 comes out," finding money isn't hard. Even if you're 18.

You don't know who I am from this comment (unless you stalk my bio and find me on Twitter). If you like it you'll upvote it. That's exactly (one of the many reasons) why I love the Internet.

Re: Pixels don’t care

#67

Post by sliverstorm »

I'm going to hazard that they didn't pay you less because you were young- they paid you less knowing that, because you were young, that was your market value. In other words, they paid you a rate competitive with what they thought you could get elsewhere, which tends to be lower when you are younger.

I'm still debating this in my head, whether it is discrimination or not if they are saying "This guy is young, his market rate is lower". (Rather than "This guy is young, he must be no good") Because it generally is an accurate assessment.

Re: Pixels don’t care

#68

Post by Retric »

delinka wrote: post #39
FireBeyond wrote: post #13

What a strange claim. "Looking back", he can't help but feel discriminated against due to his height. It couldn't possibly be because of his "no formal eduction, no experience with any big clients", could it?

If you have demonstrably great work, what does formal education do for you that will affect your work for some company? Similarly, if this guy isn't the one landing the client or dealing directly with them on a regular basis, how can the pixels possibly care about for whom they are assembled? I read these parts of his anecdotes as excuses concocted only after an in-person meeting.

I have heard that people with formal education are less likely to flake out on jobs. As in just stop showing up. Which is both important and independent of the quality of your work. Granted it's anecdotal evidence, but hiring is far from one dimensional.

Re: Pixels don’t care

#69

Post by cheapsteak »

sliverstorm wrote: post #67

I'm going to hazard that they didn't pay you less because you were young- they paid you less knowing that, because you were young, that was your market value. In other words, they paid you a rate competitive with what they thought you could get elsewhere, which tends to be lower when you are younger. I'm still debating this in my head, whether it is discrimination or not if they are saying "This guy is young, his mar…

'Market value' does not exclude discrimination if most players in the market are ageist, sexist, or racist

What would stop a company from framing any kind of discrimination as an argument from 'market value'?

Re: Pixels don’t care

#70

Post by waqf »

sliverstorm wrote: post #67

I'm going to hazard that they didn't pay you less because you were young- they paid you less knowing that, because you were young, that was your market value. In other words, they paid you a rate competitive with what they thought you could get elsewhere, which tends to be lower when you are younger. I'm still debating this in my head, whether it is discrimination or not if they are saying "This guy is young, his mar…

Would it be discrimination if they judged that his market rate was less because of his skin color?
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