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Mark Zuckerberg's Hoodie

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Re: Mark Zuckerberg's Hoodie

#31

Post by lelandbatey »

kevinalexbrown wrote: post #21

What a thoughtful essay. "But it uses a silly writing device to illustrate a point it could have just made plainly!" Whoa there, critical-thinking-by-the-numbers guy, maybe the article is also about fashion. As a child, I considered style choices a silly and inconsequential distraction from the beautiful truths of the universe: e^(ipi) + 1 doesn't care what I'm wearing, so neither should I, therefore it doesn't matte…

I'd very much like to re-emphasize this point:

> Fashion mattering doesn't depend on you caring.

In general, there are actually quite a few things like this in the world. Just because it is out of the scope of your concern does not mean it isn't of any concern.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg's Hoodie

#32

Post by InclinedPlane »

pdog wrote: post #24
InclinedPlane wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also struck me as written by someone on the East Coast, which appears to be the case (the writer lives in Toronto). Here in Seattle nobody would spend so many words writing about the hoodie. People wear them. Business professionals wear them. Sometimes even CEOs. It's not a symbol, it's just clothing.

You missed the entire point of the essay. 1) The hoodie is more than just an article of clothing, and 2) it wasn't really about the hoodies.

No, I got it. It's overwrought symbolism posing as profundity.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg's Hoodie

#33

Post by gfodor »

I've been telling my friends this: Graph Search is going to be the biggest privacy shitstorm we've ever seen, by a large margin. The only way it's not going to be is if Zuck et al cave quickly and lock it down to just search in your own network before the media picks it up. Basically Graph Search is the piece de resistance of Zuckerberg's vision for the world: ultimate transparency aided by algorithms to surface "public" information (ie, information the person posting it did not realize it was public.) It's the last big piece of the puzzle and closes the loop. The current product launch is just one "frontend" to these algorithms. Make no mistake the creation of this search engine is a huge inflection point since now things can be built on top of it.

The thesis (I think) has always been there would need to be a huge trial by fire, teaching the public about what information is actually public, and what it means to be "on the Internet" not via privacy settings, or blog posts, or tutorials, but by pure unadulterated necessity through fear. You will have to lock your shit down now or face the consequences of massive dissemination of that information. There will be no more friction. There will be causalities, and I think Facebook thinks it is an inevitability that "privacy through obscurity" becomes a thing of the past, so might as well be them to kill it. If you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet, particularly one that is going to be made by someone, so be it.

"Market efficiency" of social data is going to be achieved: just like when a news report comes out about a company its stock price instantly updates to reflect it, so to will the world itself, and the people in it, reflect the publication of personal information thanks to the ability of the world to see it via software like Graph Search. Anyone who wants to know anything about you or what you do will be able to, instantly, unless you understand the scope of the things you publish intimately.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg's Hoodie

#34

Post by petercooper »

kevinpet wrote: post #29
kevinalexbrown wrote: post #21

What a thoughtful essay. "But it uses a silly writing device to illustrate a point it could have just made plainly!" Whoa there, critical-thinking-by-the-numbers guy, maybe the article is also about fashion. As a child, I considered style choices a silly and inconsequential distraction from the beautiful truths of the universe: e^(ipi) + 1 doesn't care what I'm wearing, so neither should I, therefore it doesn't matte…

"everyone can look at someone's dress and decide if it's fashionable for their demographic." You may have forgotten where you are discussing this topic. I certainly have no clue whether something is fashionable. I'd be hard pressed to tell you if two colors go together. I do no know if I dress more or less formally than my coworkers, or if my normal clothes present any sort of image. My style is not a conscious rejec…

You may have forgotten where you are discussing this topic.

I couldn't blame anyone for this stereotype but I don't think it's true. I suspect quite a lot of people here are into or have a nose for fashion (though not necessarily in the haute couture/catwalk sense).

Re: Mark Zuckerberg's Hoodie

#35

Post by philwelch »

beatpanda wrote: post #22

Based on the responses here on Hacker News, it seems like some of you didn't get it. This article is about social privilege, and how different the life circumstances of the founder of Facebook are from many of the people using his product. It's underscoring the fact that Graph Search could only be built by someone who doesn't understand the sometimes life-or-death importance of privacy, who has never had to fear any…

It's not that the critics of this article didn't get it, it's that there's nothing there to get. If anything it's a Rorschach test that commentators like you and kevinalexbrown can read their own thoughts and biases into.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg's Hoodie

#36

Post by go37pi »

argonaut wrote: post #30
kevinalexbrown wrote: post #21

What a thoughtful essay. "But it uses a silly writing device to illustrate a point it could have just made plainly!" Whoa there, critical-thinking-by-the-numbers guy, maybe the article is also about fashion. As a child, I considered style choices a silly and inconsequential distraction from the beautiful truths of the universe: e^(ipi) + 1 doesn't care what I'm wearing, so neither should I, therefore it doesn't matte…

The problem is that, in addition to what I've already said, the essay itself does not do a good job at making a point. Sure, it gesticulates at some points. Sure, you could assume the author is trying to say X, but I think that is one's own projection of the essay's vague intent. In fact, we have two comments here which potentially illustrate what I mean. You argue that the article is about fashion. Someone else argu…

I liked the article but would agree that it may have benefited from being more explicit in its writing. Here's what I got out of it. Maly asks, "Why would you continue to wear a hoodie even though you're hot and would feel better not wearing it?" The answer that @kevinalexbrown implies and I'd agree with is that fashion is an advertisement about yourself. But that's not all.

When the advertisement is more important than the person, even if you would feel better without the hoodie, you keep it on, to feed your image. Whether that's right or wrong in the general case is beyond my scope to say. Maly is using Zuckerberg's choice as a prism on facebook and modern tech in general, saying that those who adopt facebook will have to make similar decisions, that people who always believe they are being watched may elevate the need to project an image over other more human needs.

The key to the article is that Maly believes Zuckerbergmay have kept his hoodie on because it was more uncomfortable to take it off than to experience physical discomfort, and that people who are being watched may do the same. I enjoyed the vignettes but Maly could've benefited from highlighting Zuckerberg's choice as the "strange thing" that his article grew out of and then using the history of the hoodie as a layer on top of the "strange thing" instead of juxtaposing the two threads.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg's Hoodie

#37

Post by philwelch »

kevinalexbrown wrote: post #21

What a thoughtful essay. "But it uses a silly writing device to illustrate a point it could have just made plainly!" Whoa there, critical-thinking-by-the-numbers guy, maybe the article is also about fashion. As a child, I considered style choices a silly and inconsequential distraction from the beautiful truths of the universe: e^(ipi) + 1 doesn't care what I'm wearing, so neither should I, therefore it doesn't matte…

I can't tell whether or not you're facetiously spoofing the style of the article here.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg's Hoodie

#38

Post by philwelch »

gfodor wrote: post #33

I've been telling my friends this: Graph Search is going to be the biggest privacy shitstorm we've ever seen, by a large margin. The only way it's not going to be is if Zuck et al cave quickly and lock it down to just search in your own network before the media picks it up. Basically Graph Search is the piece de resistance of Zuckerberg's vision for the world: ultimate transparency aided by algorithms to surface "pub…

I have an easy solution to that, personally: I don't share my deepest darkest secrets on social networking sites.

I can't imagine anything I've posted to Facebook being a problem if it was all printed in tomorrow's New York Times. Maybe other people should take the same approach.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg's Hoodie

#39

Post by vidarh »

michael_miller wrote: post #28
cynest wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But is that truly de-anonymizing? I share my legal name with several famous people, and numerous SEO'd professionals. Barring more specific searching knowing specific details I am relatively hard to identify. Same with just about anyone who fits the (common first name, common last name) paradigm. On the other hand (rare first name, rarer last name) is relatively easy to uniquely identify.

For most purposes, it is de-anonymizing. There might be several famous people who share your name, but is there more than one person with your name who is currently an undergrad at Caltech studying CS? In most cases, a name combined with a little bit of context will identify an individual.

The difference, for me at least, is effort.

There's a vast difference from if people can do a search for your name, and get page up and page down of stuff from every forum you might post on, vs. if people need to track down your nym's.

In my case, my HN id is trivially easy to connect to my full name, but unless you go to the effort, these comments won't show up.

My Reddit comments are still easy to connect to my full name if you try, but it does not reflect my name directly, and it will take more searches for most people. I don't care if people who know me figure it out - I've e.g. often made clear statements that identify me in comments there, by e.g. replying in threads when posts from my blog has been posted there. I don't care if the odd person here and there make the connection, with or without my help.

I don't care if people who care enough to put effort into figuring out the connections figure it out (though I'd find it rather creepy if someone thought that worthwhile) - they'd find other avenues to get information about me anyway.

But I do somewhat care that off-hand comments I make that are more like a casual chat than a serious debate or public statement does not end up ranking at the top of a Google search for my name.

I "curate" my online life that way, by deciding what I post and what usernames I use, depending on how much or little I care about tying a specific service to my public identity.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg's Hoodie

#40

Post by subsystem »

kevinpet wrote: post #29
kevinalexbrown wrote: post #21

What a thoughtful essay. "But it uses a silly writing device to illustrate a point it could have just made plainly!" Whoa there, critical-thinking-by-the-numbers guy, maybe the article is also about fashion. As a child, I considered style choices a silly and inconsequential distraction from the beautiful truths of the universe: e^(ipi) + 1 doesn't care what I'm wearing, so neither should I, therefore it doesn't matte…

"everyone can look at someone's dress and decide if it's fashionable for their demographic." You may have forgotten where you are discussing this topic. I certainly have no clue whether something is fashionable. I'd be hard pressed to tell you if two colors go together. I do no know if I dress more or less formally than my coworkers, or if my normal clothes present any sort of image. My style is not a conscious rejec…

Don't confuse fashion theory and the fashion industry. Geek culture, especially in SV, seems to have a quite specific anti-fashion with trickle-up influences. While many swear they aren't fashion conscience, they actually have quite strong connotations to things like suits.
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