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Blowing the Whistle on the Mortgage Bubble

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Re: Blowing the Whistle on the Mortgage Bubble

#171

Post by wcgortel »

MaysonL wrote: post #139
wcgortel wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, you're justified in a way. I don't think it's fraud though. Consumers are equally complicit. What I mean by that is that as the buyer of a product, you usually would go out and read the reviews, kick the tires, etcetera. At this time, many buyers of investments didn't do that at all. Our sales guys didn't understand the product for sure, but if they had a customer who asked the right question they would have…

Go read William K. Black[0] on the subject of accounting control fraud. He's the author of The Best Way to Rob a Bank is to Own One: How Corporate Executives and Politicians Looted the S&L Industry [2005] He was one of the lead regulators during the Savings and Loan crisis. Follow a few of the links on his Wikipedia page. It was fraud: massive and with regulators (led by Alan Greenspan) turning a blind eye. [0] https…

Oh heck yeah...the S&L "debacle" was outrageous AFAIK. I was ~ 2 years old when it occurred though, so can't really comment in depth.

Re: Blowing the Whistle on the Mortgage Bubble

#172

Post by shawn-butler »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #169
shawn-butler wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And after reading your entry I viewed the photos of all these bloodsuckers and ethical CEOs enjoying Sean Parker's dbag-fuelled taxidermy party at Davos. Morality and ethics don't count for anything in a contemporary society where punishment for misdeeds exists only for those who cannot afford to buy their freedom.

Being ethical is something you do for you, not society.

Probably not the right forum to discuss it but I'm not sure that's really true.

You might be interested in post-70s studies concerning the primate theory of mind in this respect. Primates seem naturally programmed to steal but only when they think they can get away with it. I have been following the work of Laurie Santos at Yale on the question of primate theory of mind and her studies of capuchin monkeys. Her work is highly experimental and interesting and she is very engaging.[0]

She set up field studies to test whether primates use knowledge of whether they are being observed to decide when it's ok to steal and it is clear that they do. [1]

When your family is hungry, you will steal so long as you believe you can get away with it and not deprive them further. Primates want to be seen by peers as ethical because it is advantageous (it will be easier to steal in the future) but in reality generally are deceitful at every opportunity.

It seems that we are indeed generally ethical in relations because of cultural discipline/punish power dynamics, not out of any sense of moral duty. I think the only way to rescue Cicero is to discover the underlying mathematical model by which doing the "right" thing and the "advantageous" thing are always the same. If no such model exists, it's just so much hyperbole rambling of parent to child.

[0] http://www.yale.edu/caplab/Main/Publications.html

[1] http://youtu.be/0xp_GwAKZnY?t=3m47s

Re: Blowing the Whistle on the Mortgage Bubble

#173

Post by dredmorbius »

wcgortel wrote: post #106
nicholasjarnold wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot express how angry reading comments like this makes me. Clearly many of these guys at the top (bank CEO's, fund managers, ect.) were systematically defrauding everyone in order to turn a larger profit. Call me naive, but isn't this shit (the massive fraud perpetrated on us by banks) supposed to result in hefty jail sentences?

I mean, you're justified in a way. I don't think it's fraud though. Consumers are equally complicit. What I mean by that is that as the buyer of a product, you usually would go out and read the reviews, kick the tires, etcetera. At this time, many buyers of investments didn't do that at all. Our sales guys didn't understand the product for sure, but if they had a customer who asked the right question they would have…

A company, pretty much by definition, acts in concert. Leading up to the 2007 financial collapse, major sectors of the banking and finance sectors were acting in concert to transact fraud, or were turning a blind eye to it in their own business. Individuals bringing the matter to light were at best ignored, if not disciplined.

Customers in aggregate do not act as a collective unit. If banks, mortgage brokers, and others are lying, encouraging lying, falsifying, and otherwise systematically subverting the system, the fault lies squarely with them.

Interesting business ethics you've got there. Remind me never to to business (or pleasure) with you.

Re: Blowing the Whistle on the Mortgage Bubble

#174

Post by Nursie »

JackFr wrote: post #119
Nursie wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gold is shiny, the paper is bendy and has a picture of some dude on it. In the absence of other people and their ideas of value, given enough cotton paper I could make clothing or a fire. Given enough gold I could probably make a bludgeoning weapon... Both have fairly minor value in the absence of shared delusion. And even beyond that, what the hell is 'intrinsic' value? Has the universe decreed that there is a prope…

The simple difference is the level of scarcity. If there is a high demand for fiat money -- observable through a rise in interest rates, a measure of the inter-temporal preference for money now versus later -- the Federal Reserve can print more. If there is a high demand for gold money, at the margins we can produce more, but basically the supply is fixed. This limits the rate at which the real economy can grow. Many…

In the absence of other people, cotton-paper would be an unusual and hard to manufacture item too...

Meh.

Re: Blowing the Whistle on the Mortgage Bubble

#175

Post by Nursie »

sageikosa wrote: post #138
Nursie wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's right, socialists are the ones to blame. Good citizen, you've been well trained to see socialist enemies hiding around every corner. We do not live in a socialist world. If you had any comprehension of what the word meant you would stop using it.

World: socialist. (And in denial) Check! Just because we haven't obtained the socialist paradise, doesn't mean we aren't living under a socialist order. It's the means that define socialism, not achievement of the goals. The means are "social" control of the means of production; whether it is by direct seizure of the state, proletariat masses, or small anarcho-syndicalist communes; or indirect by legislation, regulat…

Seriously, you think that the ever-expanding wealth disparity in the entire western world is a symptom of a socialist planet?

Get a grip. Just because you haven't obtained your Libertarian paradise (which AFAICT would be hell on earth and quickly devolve back to Feudalism) doesn't mean that the word and the political philosophy don't still have distinct meanings.

Socialism is not an all encompassing term for 'anything a Libertarian disagrees with'.

Re: Blowing the Whistle on the Mortgage Bubble

#176

Post by sageikosa »

Nursie wrote: post #175
sageikosa wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

World: socialist. (And in denial) Check! Just because we haven't obtained the socialist paradise, doesn't mean we aren't living under a socialist order. It's the means that define socialism, not achievement of the goals. The means are "social" control of the means of production; whether it is by direct seizure of the state, proletariat masses, or small anarcho-syndicalist communes; or indirect by legislation, regulat…

Seriously, you think that the ever-expanding wealth disparity in the entire western world is a symptom of a socialist planet? Get a grip. Just because you haven't obtained your Libertarian paradise (which AFAICT would be hell on earth and quickly devolve back to Feudalism) doesn't mean that the word and the political philosophy don't still have distinct meanings. Socialism is not an all encompassing term for 'anythin…

Never said it was an all encompassing term, just an all encompassing practice. The term means social ownership of the means of production. If the political structure of a society wants to pretend regulation, licensing, permissions, incentive/punitive taxes, bail-outs, take-overs and nationalizations are not effectively the same thing as (at least partial) social ownership; that's society's business, not mine.

I cannot understand the political philosophy of socialism any better than I can understand another's faith, nor do I try. Socialist agendas may not be marked as such on the packaging, but that doesn't mean the ingredients didn't come from the same farm.

I have no great plan for society. I am of the mind that the "problem" of stable society is as insoluble as determining what the product prices should be in a marketless society. So, I also don't think anyone else socialist or otherwise has a great plan for society (visions perhaps, but nothing practically actionable), but I don't think that stops policymakers from tinkering when they can.

I have no idea what a Libertarian paradise would be, and I have offered none. Since I have no power to stop the looming dissolution of social order, nor predict the exact time or nature of the chaos; I can only hope to eek out an existence somewhere. But I will continue to remind men such that they may listen, that it was not the pursuit of liberty that brought man's enslavement, but the pursuit of enslavement.

Re: Blowing the Whistle on the Mortgage Bubble

#177

Post by Nursie »

sageikosa wrote: post #176
Nursie wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously, you think that the ever-expanding wealth disparity in the entire western world is a symptom of a socialist planet? Get a grip. Just because you haven't obtained your Libertarian paradise (which AFAICT would be hell on earth and quickly devolve back to Feudalism) doesn't mean that the word and the political philosophy don't still have distinct meanings. Socialism is not an all encompassing term for 'anythin…

Never said it was an all encompassing term, just an all encompassing practice. The term means social ownership of the means of production. If the political structure of a society wants to pretend regulation, licensing, permissions, incentive/punitive taxes, bail-outs, take-overs and nationalizations are not effectively the same thing as (at least partial) social ownership; that's society's business, not mine. I canno…

"If the political structure of a society wants to pretend regulation, licensing, permissions, incentive/punitive taxes, bail-outs, take-overs and nationalizations are not effectively the same thing as (at least partial) social ownership; that's society's business, not mine."

Current society is not run on principles or aims anything like the means of production being in the ownership of the workers.

You can pretend all you like that "OMG Socialism!" is taking over the world, but the reality is far from it in both aims and current direction.

You don't have to understand another's religion or political views to understand what those things are, and you have failed.

As for the looming dissolution of social order - LMFAO. You're a wingnut. Get help.

Re: Blowing the Whistle on the Mortgage Bubble

#178

Post by deveac »

1123581321 wrote: post #158
deveac wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"The problem of socialism is that at one point you run out of other people's money". And that's where we're arriving now. Ugh. I try my best not to be snarky on here, but here is the wiki explaining what socialism is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism Don't worry, you don't have to read past the first sentence to reveal your complete and utter misunderstanding of the term. The trend, over the years, has been ov…

I wish you wouldn't have been snarky. The next time you write a post like this, I suggest explaining what is socialism in your post, how it differs from what the person described, and providing them with a word that better fits what they were saying. Also, I don't see why if using the correct word is called "accurate," then using the wrong word is called "dogma" instead of "inaccurate." Your implication was that some…

>next time you write a post like this, I suggest explaining what is socialism in your post

I believe linking to the wiki and clearly directing him to the exact place in the wiki (the first line) communicates the information very effectively. Barrier to entry is zero and if he wants to keep reading he can go more in depth.

>I don't see why if using the correct word is called "accurate," then using the wrong word is called "dogma"

Using the wrong word is not, by definition, dogma. Dogma was inferred from other verbiage in his post, and is my opinion and the impression I got from his language.

>I'd like you to imagine what Hacker News would be like if people corrected technical ignorance with...

See above, -I don't really think this was technical ignorance. Of course I could be wrong, but that's not the premise I'm working with, or the impression I got. Hence the snark.

But as I already mentioned, I shouldn't have bothered to reply at all to what I saw as a dogmatic post. I think there's and adage about what to do when you're coming up short with niceties that applies here...

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