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"I couldn't really learn Erlang, 'cos it didn't exist, so I invented it"

erlang.org

171–180 of 183 posts

Re: "I couldn't really learn Erlang, 'cos it didn't exist, so I invented it"

#171
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finding one edge case doesn't refute the original point. Most /r/programming-esque lingual slut-shaming is by people who seem to be very good at being Right On The Internet, and not much else. And that's a woefully terrible thing to be good at.

What evidence do you have that a propensity to "slut-shame" isn't distributed evenly between people who are and aren't good at things?

Purely anecdotal. I'm just highly suspicious of individuals who feel the need to slut-shame anonymous people on the Internet rather than actually make things.

Re: "I couldn't really learn Erlang, 'cos it didn't exist, so I invented it"

#172
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are absolutely correct, of course. But he was sharing his personal frustrations with C++, not engaging in the programming equivalent of "slut-shaming" someone for using C++. That's an important distinction that I think has been lost with the HN community. Without criticism, nothing would get better, but if you criticize someone for making something or making a choice, you might just encourage them to stop being a…

not being a girl myself, I suspect that a girl who has been "slut shamed" would probably take offense at someone referring to our circle jerks about one's favorite tool(s) to be considered "slut shaming". Lets keep things in perspective here.

i hope it was a girl who downvoted me.

Re: "I couldn't really learn Erlang, 'cos it didn't exist, so I invented it"

#173
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is amazingly both of the above points 1. A clear and succinct citicism directed at the failings of a language in technical terms 2. Attacking a maker and telling them not to make stuff. However. Like Stallman, we take the rough with the smooth with Torvalds. Some people earn it.

Given Dmitry instigated that incident by attempting himself to "slut-shame" C, I'd say he had that one coming! I think Linus was fed-up there with the nth polite suggestion he re-implement either git or the kernel in C++.

There was a "police camera action" footage of a UK nightclub and a man leaping up and slapping the bouncer 6 or 7 times because he was not allowed in - on the eighth leap the bouncer simply punches him once to the ground.

The voice over explains that police had reviewed the footage, and whilst commonly prosecuting bouncers for ABH, this time declined to press charges.

Its probably not at all the same :-)

Re: "I couldn't really learn Erlang, 'cos it didn't exist, so I invented it"

#174
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't share your strong focus on "encouraging creation." I think it is more important that we encourage cooperation and sharing then creation. We have no shortage of software being created the problem is we still are extremely bad at fitting things together.

Fitting things together is important, but it exists entirely for the purpose of creating things, which is ultimately in service of end users. Fitting things together is mostly an implementation detail.

Creating things is just fitting together new things. Rather then fitting together many new things that may overlap already existing things we should focus on fitting together an efficient unified system that use resource sharing to ensure a minimum of bloat.

In death of the desktop, interface expert Aza Raskin mentioned that his computer has seven copies of the spellcheck program with seven slightly different implementations of the English language. Building a user interface based upon command sharing rather then bloated applications will ultimately benefit end users.

Re: "I couldn't really learn Erlang, 'cos it didn't exist, so I invented it"

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you point out some things that don't become part of people's identity? My experience is that anything that someone spends more than a tiny amount of time with immediately starts becoming part of who they are. The boundary of our self is constantly spreading outwards onto the things around us. Seems to be part of human nature.

Psychologists have a concept known as "self-complexity" (wiki it). Basically, it's our view of ourselves, in terms of the many attributes, relationships, skills, deficiencies, etc. we possess. Someone who thinks of themselves in broad terms, filling many roles and with many aspects, is said to have a high self-complexity. Someone who thinks of themselves in terms of only a single aspect has low self-complexity. Think…

Generally really like your post, but I have to correct you about PG's essay.

It's people who work at normal jobs that he calls caged animals, and founders are the wild animals.

"In fact, getting a normal job may actually make you less able to start a startup, by turning you into a tame animal who thinks he needs an office to work in and a product manager to tell him what software to write."

http://www.paulgraham.com/notnot.html

Re: "I couldn't really learn Erlang, 'cos it didn't exist, so I invented it"

#176
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Psychologists have a concept known as "self-complexity" (wiki it). Basically, it's our view of ourselves, in terms of the many attributes, relationships, skills, deficiencies, etc. we possess. Someone who thinks of themselves in broad terms, filling many roles and with many aspects, is said to have a high self-complexity. Someone who thinks of themselves in terms of only a single aspect has low self-complexity. Think…

Generally really like your post, but I have to correct you about PG's essay. It's people who work at normal jobs that he calls caged animals, and founders are the wild animals. "In fact, getting a normal job may actually make you less able to start a startup, by turning you into a tame animal who thinks he needs an office to work in and a product manager to tell him what software to write." http://www.paulgraham.com/…

I was thinking of a different essay:

http://www.paulgraham.com/start.html

"One of the best tricks I learned during our startup was a rule for deciding who to hire. Could you describe the person as an animal? It might be hard to translate that into another language, but I think everyone in the US knows what it means. It means someone who takes their work a little too seriously; someone who does what they do so well that they pass right through professional and cross over into obsessive."

Re: "I couldn't really learn Erlang, 'cos it didn't exist, so I invented it"

#177
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fitting things together is important, but it exists entirely for the purpose of creating things, which is ultimately in service of end users. Fitting things together is mostly an implementation detail.

Creating things is just fitting together new things. Rather then fitting together many new things that may overlap already existing things we should focus on fitting together an efficient unified system that use resource sharing to ensure a minimum of bloat. In death of the desktop, interface expert Aza Raskin mentioned that his computer has seven copies of the spellcheck program with seven slightly different impleme…

Obviously better interop is a Good Thing, but we're talking about relative weights of good things. My point is that it's nonsensical to ascribe "fitting together" a higher weight than "creation", because "fitting together" is a subset of "creation".

Now as to the manner of creation: you're reacting against the "just hack it together" philosophy of ghc. But the alternative in ghc's mind, I think, was people not creating anything for fear of not getting it right, or not knowing that building something for themselves is even a possibility. Sub-optimal creation is usually better than nothing, especially when nobody else has to use it.

Fitting stuff together is hard, especially now when we don't have good protocols. While we're working on those, telling people who just need to get stuff done to "wait until we figure some stuff out" is not acceptable. Those people (who may not even be "Programmers") and their products will still benefit from "fitting things together" to some degree that depends on the application (OS or fart app?), but that needs to be balanced against the need to actually finish at some point, all of which is in the service of some non-software need. They just need to get it done with whatever works, whether it's Haskell, PHP, or a spreadsheet. That, I think, is the point ghc was getting at.

Re: "I couldn't really learn Erlang, 'cos it didn't exist, so I invented it"

#178

To me, this list is great except for one small thing. - C - Prolog - Erlang - Smalltalk - Javascript - Hakell / ML /OCaml - LISP/Scheme/Clojure Javascript?! Over Ruby or Python or Lua? What is it with people liking Javascript. I really don't get it. What can I do that is so beautiful or mindbending that I can't do in python? From my experience there is only two reasons to learn Javascript: to be able to build web app…

As others said you missed the point. But, you also (based on this one comment) have little awareness or imagination. > What can I do that is so beautiful or mindbending that I can't do in python? The most (and plainly) obvious is; write programs that run on the widest deployed platform/distribution network by several orders of magnitude. That is mindbending and beautiful. Go use Javascript for several years to figure…

Nail, meet hammer.

Re: "I couldn't really learn Erlang, 'cos it didn't exist, so I invented it"

#179
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Creating things is just fitting together new things. Rather then fitting together many new things that may overlap already existing things we should focus on fitting together an efficient unified system that use resource sharing to ensure a minimum of bloat. In death of the desktop, interface expert Aza Raskin mentioned that his computer has seven copies of the spellcheck program with seven slightly different impleme…

Obviously better interop is a Good Thing, but we're talking about relative weights of good things. My point is that it's nonsensical to ascribe "fitting together" a higher weight than "creation", because "fitting together" is a subset of "creation". Now as to the manner of creation: you're reacting against the "just hack it together" philosophy of ghc. But the alternative in ghc's mind, I think, was people not creati…

You got it backwards when you said "fitting together" is a subset of "creation." Creation is fitting existing unused materials together into a more usable form. I believe we should encourage people to fit together existing programs rather then encouraging people to build stuff "whatever the language, whatever the library, whatever the framework".

If everybody uses whatever framework without concern for compatibility it will inevitably lead to enormous bloat. I have no problem with getting things done quickly to fulfill non-software needs. However, when it comes to software one of our most important needs is to reduce bloat by encouraging sharing.

Re: "I couldn't really learn Erlang, 'cos it didn't exist, so I invented it"

#180

Navel-gazing aside, Armstrong suggested that a good language would consist of closed forms interacting over formal protocols. What languages fit that description?

CORBA springs to mind.

Terrifying.
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