A Wrist-Worn Answer to Sexual Attack? • Hacker News Board

Re: A Wrist-Worn Answer to Sexual Attack?

#21

Post by matt_ » Fri, Jan 25, 2013, 10:24 PM UTC

cobrausn wrote: post #16

matt_ wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the attacker has a gun/pepper spray?... Not to mention that many women state their bodies just shut down like they weren't even there, even if they had a way out/way to defend themselves.

And many women recall every horrific detail. Seriously, you sound like you are advocating that any potential rape victim should just shut up and take it. My guess is it would be because your (already stupidly safe) life would be a bit safer without (legal) weapons around. My wife, for what it's worth, will put a bullet in a rapist and not think twice. I told her to put more than one. If that seems 'crass' or 'tacky'…

No. I'm not.

I'm advocating that telling a rape victim that she could have/should have done more to defend herself is stupid and disgusting.

I'm fucking thrilled if your wife has the capacity to do that. That's great. I really fucking hope she does.

Thinking that every woman can do that, or that it would be possible in every situation (or even most) is absurd.

Re: A Wrist-Worn Answer to Sexual Attack?

#22

Post by hnriot » Fri, Jan 25, 2013, 10:24 PM UTC

cobrausn wrote: post #10

matt_ wrote: post #7

A gun? Pepper Spray? You have no idea how the rapist will react to that. And someone shouldn't have to have the burden of ending another human's life just to not be attacked.

What is with this absurd first world notion that nobody should ever have anything bad ever happen to them in their life? Self-defense has been part of being alive since the dawn of humanity - living in a civilized (to various degrees) area doesn't negate that. You are either prepared to do what needs to be done to protect yourself, or you rely on passive measures (living in a nice area, avoiding dangerous situations,…

It's a first world notion because that's part of being a first world country. We invest in infrastructure that provides protection. Self-defense has shifted to the much more efficient system where by individuals don't walk around armed because we pay into a system of government that provides both police forces and military defense.

The absurd idea that we all each take self defense into our own hands is just ridiculous, just as you don't build your own water supply, or generate your own electricity, or train to be a doctor just in case you get sick.

I can't imagine a more dangerous society where we all take self-defense into our own hands. It wouldn't be the first world if we did that. Let's not start spouting the gun toting nonsense here, the audience on hn is too smart to buy that.

Re: A Wrist-Worn Answer to Sexual Attack?

#23

Post by cobrausn » Fri, Jan 25, 2013, 10:28 PM UTC

matt_ wrote: post #21

cobrausn wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And many women recall every horrific detail. Seriously, you sound like you are advocating that any potential rape victim should just shut up and take it. My guess is it would be because your (already stupidly safe) life would be a bit safer without (legal) weapons around. My wife, for what it's worth, will put a bullet in a rapist and not think twice. I told her to put more than one. If that seems 'crass' or 'tacky'…

No. I'm not. I'm advocating that telling a rape victim that she could have/should have done more to defend herself is stupid and disgusting. I'm fucking thrilled if your wife has the capacity to do that. That's great. I really fucking hope she does. Thinking that every woman can do that, or that it would be possible in every situation (or even most) is absurd.

Of course it's not possible to arm every potential rape victim and say "now it's on you!". But it's either something you choose to do, or something you don't.

You don't tell them what they should have done to prevent it. But when someone does prevent it, do you tell them they shouldn't have had the ability to?

Re: A Wrist-Worn Answer to Sexual Attack?

#24

Post by king_jester » Fri, Jan 25, 2013, 10:30 PM UTC

For those advocating arms (pepper spray, taser, gun, etc.) as a solution, please get some basic facts straight.

* Most people who are sexually assaulted know their attacker and are not attacked randomly on the street. This makes self defense scenarios unrealistic, as there is already some level of trust between an attacker and the survivor

* Most sexual assaults will go without arrests and prosecution. There have already been cases where women have been arrested and sent to jail for self defense (CeCe Mcdonald's case comes to mind), including the Marissa Alexander case where someone fired a warning shot at their abuser and was sent to jail: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Corey#Marissa_Alexander_...

* Sexual assault and rape aren't just about incidents, it is about a culture that supports rapists and demonizes survivors and dismantling that culture is the best way to defeat sexual assault

Re: A Wrist-Worn Answer to Sexual Attack?

#25

Post by incision » Fri, Jan 25, 2013, 10:32 PM UTC

cobrausn wrote: post #18

incision wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guns: They Make You Invincible

Guns: Provably better than snark at preventing and stopping rape.

Snark: Not an unreasonable response to predictable [1], pointless chest-thumping.

A reasonable discussion of rape defense / deterrents or even gun ownership would be fine. A quip that romanticizes "the smoking barrel of a 9mm" like it's just that simple is pure bullshit.

1: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4948542

Re: A Wrist-Worn Answer to Sexual Attack?

#26

Post by cobrausn » Fri, Jan 25, 2013, 10:34 PM UTC

hnriot wrote: post #22

cobrausn wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is with this absurd first world notion that nobody should ever have anything bad ever happen to them in their life? Self-defense has been part of being alive since the dawn of humanity - living in a civilized (to various degrees) area doesn't negate that. You are either prepared to do what needs to be done to protect yourself, or you rely on passive measures (living in a nice area, avoiding dangerous situations,…

It's a first world notion because that's part of being a first world country. We invest in infrastructure that provides protection. Self-defense has shifted to the much more efficient system where by individuals don't walk around armed because we pay into a system of government that provides both police forces and military defense. The absurd idea that we all each take self defense into our own hands is just ridiculo…

'Gun Toting Nonsense'? God this is absurd elitist bull - the type of drivel spouted from the mouths of people who assume the argument is already won by virtue of their 'superior minds'.

I'm guessing you live in a wonderful neighborhood with great police protection, low crime, and are not part of the demographic that is often targeted for assault. I'm happy you get to live your wonderfully enlightened progressive existence.

The rest of us will just become one of those statistics that happen when you 'offload' your rights, yes?

Of course you don't take your self defense completely in to your own hands - we live in a civilization so that we can organize and protect each other. But, ultimately, you are the only one who can ensure you stay alive. To think otherwise is pretty naive, or comes from a position of entitlement.

For the interest of full disclosure, I keep a firearm in my vehicle and one at home. My wife concealed carries. We live in a neighborhood with fairly regular home invasions, and even a few murders over the last few years. We plan on leaving as soon as student loans get paid and we can.

Re: A Wrist-Worn Answer to Sexual Attack?

#27

Post by cobrausn » Fri, Jan 25, 2013, 10:37 PM UTC

king_jester wrote: post #24

For those advocating arms (pepper spray, taser, gun, etc.) as a solution, please get some basic facts straight. * Most people who are sexually assaulted know their attacker and are not attacked randomly on the street. This makes self defense scenarios unrealistic, as there is already some level of trust between an attacker and the survivor * Most sexual assaults will go without arrests and prosecution. There have alr…

Statistics don't comfort the victims that could have done something but were restricted from doing so, usually by people who already live safe lives and want them to be safer.

And your second example basically says 'we will prevent you from defending yourself, so just take it and hope the system saves you'.

And if you think this culture 'supports rapists and demonizes survivors', you are in need of getting your facts straight.

EDIT:

I'm beginning to take this whole thing a bit personal. I learned a long time ago to call it quits when that starts to happen on the internet, so I'm out.

Re: A Wrist-Worn Answer to Sexual Attack?

#28

Post by drcube » Fri, Jan 25, 2013, 10:38 PM UTC

hnriot wrote: post #22

cobrausn wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is with this absurd first world notion that nobody should ever have anything bad ever happen to them in their life? Self-defense has been part of being alive since the dawn of humanity - living in a civilized (to various degrees) area doesn't negate that. You are either prepared to do what needs to be done to protect yourself, or you rely on passive measures (living in a nice area, avoiding dangerous situations,…

It's a first world notion because that's part of being a first world country. We invest in infrastructure that provides protection. Self-defense has shifted to the much more efficient system where by individuals don't walk around armed because we pay into a system of government that provides both police forces and military defense. The absurd idea that we all each take self defense into our own hands is just ridiculo…

Police are not there to protect you. Their job is to bring perpetrators to justice. If they are nearby, they may or may not attempt to stop a crime in progress, but they are not required to do so, and that does nothing to stop personal assaults that might occur. In the best case, they are purely reactionary, not preventative. In the worst case they are useless.

The military is not there to protect you either. Their job is to enforce national policy abroad, put down rebellions and repel invasions.

I agree that police and the military make us safer overall, on average. But they do not protect you personally. You can either pay a private security firm to defend you if you are rich, or you can defend yourself. There literally are no other choices.

Re: A Wrist-Worn Answer to Sexual Attack?

#29

Post by king_jester » Fri, Jan 25, 2013, 10:45 PM UTC

cobrausn wrote: post #27

king_jester wrote: post #24

For those advocating arms (pepper spray, taser, gun, etc.) as a solution, please get some basic facts straight. * Most people who are sexually assaulted know their attacker and are not attacked randomly on the street. This makes self defense scenarios unrealistic, as there is already some level of trust between an attacker and the survivor * Most sexual assaults will go without arrests and prosecution. There have alr…

Statistics don't comfort the victims that could have done something but were restricted from doing so, usually by people who already live safe lives and want them to be safer. And your second example basically says 'we will prevent you from defending yourself, so just take it and hope the system saves you'. And if you think this culture 'supports rapists and demonizes survivors', you are in need of getting your facts…

My main point is that most people won't have a chance to protect themselves, although I do agree 100% people have a right to protect themselves. It's important to note that self defense isn't a solution to the overall problem and leave those in circumstances where its difficult to defend themselves without options (e.g. someone with a disability).

My second example was to highlight that people defending themselves faces more prosecution than those actually committing assaults. The system will not help you, generally speaking, if you are a survivor of sexual assault and you are likely to be prosecuted for defending yourself. That is a part of rape culture, btw, the legal indifference towards rapists.

For an overview of rape culture, which is a real thing, see: http://www.shakesville.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html

Re: A Wrist-Worn Answer to Sexual Attack?

#30

Post by _delirium » Fri, Jan 25, 2013, 10:53 PM UTC

cobrausn wrote: post #10

matt_ wrote: post #7

A gun? Pepper Spray? You have no idea how the rapist will react to that. And someone shouldn't have to have the burden of ending another human's life just to not be attacked.

What is with this absurd first world notion that nobody should ever have anything bad ever happen to them in their life? Self-defense has been part of being alive since the dawn of humanity - living in a civilized (to various degrees) area doesn't negate that. You are either prepared to do what needs to be done to protect yourself, or you rely on passive measures (living in a nice area, avoiding dangerous situations,…

If you live in an actually civilized area, you shouldn't have to shoot people (or even brandish a gun at someone, or fire warning shots) in order to walk down the street without being harmed. That's pretty much the baseline threshold for living in a civilized area versus some kind of wild-west scenario where you barricade the windows and don't dare leave your home unarmed.

I can see that it'd be prudent to be able to engage in some self-defense in rare scenarios, but in a civilized area they really should be extremely rare scenarios. A functioning government and civil society to the extent that people aren't being regularly assaulted in the street isn't that high a degree of public order! I live in a large European city, and I certainly feel safe here without carrying guns (safer than I feel in most American cities).