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"I couldn't really learn Erlang, 'cos it didn't exist, so I invented it"

erlang.org

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Re: "I couldn't really learn Erlang, 'cos it didn't exist, so I invented it"

#31

Post by xradionut »

pekk wrote: post #14
3pt14159 wrote: post #11

To me, this list is great except for one small thing. - C - Prolog - Erlang - Smalltalk - Javascript - Hakell / ML /OCaml - LISP/Scheme/Clojure Javascript?! Over Ruby or Python or Lua? What is it with people liking Javascript. I really don't get it. What can I do that is so beautiful or mindbending that I can't do in python? From my experience there is only two reasons to learn Javascript: to be able to build web app…

Javascript is a very different language from Python. It is in some ways more flexible and less prescriptive. You point out one of the non-overlapping use cases. Javascript performance has seen really intensive efforts. Javascript has grown a rather nice async ecosystem that Python just doesn't have. It's also exciting for people from the standpoint that everything feels newer and more up for grabs. Python is a rather…

"Javascript has grown a rather nice async ecosystem that Python just doesn't have. It's also exciting for people from the standpoint that everything feels newer and more up for grabs. Python is a rather old language."

Python old? Not to be snarky, but I've got programs for the PDP-11 that dated Python's great-grandmother. Excitement in a language doesn't cut it, I respect productivity, environment and progress. For automation, data munging and analysis, Python is my secret weapon in a shop of MS SQL Server DBA's and C# ditto heads. Would have be nice if MS would have adapted IronPython instead of creating PowerShell...

Yes, there are oodles of crappy Turning complete programming languages, but there's definative advantages to a much smaller sub-set of decent langauges and environments.

Re: "I couldn't really learn Erlang, 'cos it didn't exist, so I invented it"

#32

Post by rauljara »

3pt14159 wrote: post #11

To me, this list is great except for one small thing. - C - Prolog - Erlang - Smalltalk - Javascript - Hakell / ML /OCaml - LISP/Scheme/Clojure Javascript?! Over Ruby or Python or Lua? What is it with people liking Javascript. I really don't get it. What can I do that is so beautiful or mindbending that I can't do in python? From my experience there is only two reasons to learn Javascript: to be able to build web app…

> What is it with people liking Javascript. I really don't get it. What can I do that is so beautiful or mindbending that I can't do in python?

That's kind of a silly question to ask.

For one, features are duplicated across masses of languages. If you ask, 'what is the one specific thing I can do in this language that I couldn't do in some other language?', the answer is almost certainly nothing. Languages only really start standing out from one another when you start talking about combinations of features. Javascript's combination of prototyping, closures, and first class functions isn't like any of the other languages on the list even before you get to html DOM manipulation or nosql.

But the more important point I'd like to make is, that if a whole bunch of smart people say they really like something, and you can't see why, that should be a sign to look harder.

Which is not to say, if a whole bunch of smart people like something you have to like it, too. But there's a reason smart people recommend it. And even if you eventually end up disagreeing with the reason, that doesn't mean it isn't there.

Re: "I couldn't really learn Erlang, 'cos it didn't exist, so I invented it"

#33

Post by PurplePanda »

ghc wrote: post #12

Just for a moment, consider who this man is and what he has done. We would all do well to take a step back and consider his manner of response. Notice that he continued learning new languages after creating Erlang (instead of just evangelizing it at the one true language). He did not immediately say "choose these three languages" as if they were the only ones you could possibly learn. Does it really help our professi…

Each language has its purpose, however humble. Each language expresses the Yin and Yang of software. Each language has its place within the Tao.

But do not program in COBOL if you can avoid it.

The Tao Of Programming verse 1.3

Re: "I couldn't really learn Erlang, 'cos it didn't exist, so I invented it"

#34

Post by xradionut »

kapuhy wrote: post #16
3pt14159 wrote: post #11

To me, this list is great except for one small thing. - C - Prolog - Erlang - Smalltalk - Javascript - Hakell / ML /OCaml - LISP/Scheme/Clojure Javascript?! Over Ruby or Python or Lua? What is it with people liking Javascript. I really don't get it. What can I do that is so beautiful or mindbending that I can't do in python? From my experience there is only two reasons to learn Javascript: to be able to build web app…

Javascript has some unique concepts, while Ruby or Pyton are just mix of features also present in Smalltalk or LISP. So learning Ruby has no added value if you already know those.

Python also borrowed some good stuff from Icon. Not that many folks here have actually used Icon, but it was fun to compile and play with back in the day.

Re: "I couldn't really learn Erlang, 'cos it didn't exist, so I invented it"

#35

Post by brudgers »

3pt14159 wrote: post #11

To me, this list is great except for one small thing. - C - Prolog - Erlang - Smalltalk - Javascript - Hakell / ML /OCaml - LISP/Scheme/Clojure Javascript?! Over Ruby or Python or Lua? What is it with people liking Javascript. I really don't get it. What can I do that is so beautiful or mindbending that I can't do in python? From my experience there is only two reasons to learn Javascript: to be able to build web app…

I know it's wrong, but I've used pliers on bicycle wheel nuts. They were at hand and the Park wrench wasn't. But what the hell, the tire was flat and it was a long walk home.I am a kludgaholic. And not seeing it as a problem.

The author was using Fortran on punch cards and considered himself lucky [Enter: three more Yorkshiremen ...]

Re: "I couldn't really learn Erlang, 'cos it didn't exist, so I invented it"

#36

Post by dagw »

pekk wrote: post #14
3pt14159 wrote: post #11

To me, this list is great except for one small thing. - C - Prolog - Erlang - Smalltalk - Javascript - Hakell / ML /OCaml - LISP/Scheme/Clojure Javascript?! Over Ruby or Python or Lua? What is it with people liking Javascript. I really don't get it. What can I do that is so beautiful or mindbending that I can't do in python? From my experience there is only two reasons to learn Javascript: to be able to build web app…

Javascript is a very different language from Python. It is in some ways more flexible and less prescriptive. You point out one of the non-overlapping use cases. Javascript performance has seen really intensive efforts. Javascript has grown a rather nice async ecosystem that Python just doesn't have. It's also exciting for people from the standpoint that everything feels newer and more up for grabs. Python is a rather…

Python is a rather old language.

A massive 3 years older Javascript.

Re: "I couldn't really learn Erlang, 'cos it didn't exist, so I invented it"

#37

Post by minikomi »

hellerbarde wrote: post #3

This is very well written. A very interesting and verbose (not in a bad way) way of answering the everpresent question "What language should I learn?" PS: Yes, I know that not the whole discussion was about this question. Still.

I'm pretty blown away by how well written and civil a lot of posts are on this thread.

Re: "I couldn't really learn Erlang, 'cos it didn't exist, so I invented it"

#38

Post by klibertp »

3pt14159 wrote: post #11

To me, this list is great except for one small thing. - C - Prolog - Erlang - Smalltalk - Javascript - Hakell / ML /OCaml - LISP/Scheme/Clojure Javascript?! Over Ruby or Python or Lua? What is it with people liking Javascript. I really don't get it. What can I do that is so beautiful or mindbending that I can't do in python? From my experience there is only two reasons to learn Javascript: to be able to build web app…

Argh. How could you read this post and still miss the point so badly?

It is not about languages, it is about ideas. And the fact that you need years to master each of these languages because of ideas they are built upon, not because of such trivial things as syntax.

I strongly suspect that Joe would be equally comfortable with this list was C substituted with Go, Smalltalk substituted with Io or JavaScript substituted with Lua.

To paraphrase: "what is it with people liking or not liking JavaScript"? I know what is it with these people: they are noobs (sorry in advance, this is not intended as offensive). I have been programming for just twenty years now and I just recently, a few years ago, understood all this, so I'm not exactly surprised by your post, but still, I thought that email so well written as Joe's here would repel this kind of "Javascript is bad, use WhatEver(tm)" talk.

It seems I was overly optimistic with this one.

Re: "I couldn't really learn Erlang, 'cos it didn't exist, so I invented it"

#39

Post by _nato_ »

Joe is fearless and an inspiration. For those with 25~ dollars to spare, pick up Joe's 'Programming Erlang' and never regret it. I _think_ differently after reading that book. I am mainly a musician, but what he uncovered for me regarding our brains and how we think blew me away.

Re: "I couldn't really learn Erlang, 'cos it didn't exist, so I invented it"

#40

Post by koide »

__alexs wrote: post #28
koide wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Javascript has true closures, Python doesn't (or didn't?)

Python has closures, it just doesn't have a very convenient anonymous function syntax. I can't say I miss function () { .. } very often though.

AFAIU Python's closure have been incomplete for a long time. I think they've become true, complete closures after the addition of the nonlocal keyword on 3.0

Please correct me if I'm mistaken. This all comes from a cursory research on the subject.

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