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Toxic fog settles over Salt Lake City

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Re: Toxic fog settles over Salt Lake City

#31
post #14

I'm amazed by people's ability to rationalize why it's okay to continue commuting long distances and driving cars in general, despite the toxic smog that gets deadlier every year. Instead of making those hard changes like using public transit or living locally, I guess everyone is waiting for Elon Musk to save the world with his magic-mobiles. Go ahead, downvote me for telling the truth. I got karma to spare.

> Instead of making those hard changes like using public transit Actually diesel buses make more soot than cars. For this problem, public transit is not the solution. (Unless you use LNG buses.)

What are you talking about? The idea is to reduce the total number of cars by getting everyone using public transit. One bus might make twice as much soot as a car, but the bus can bring a lot more than two cars off the road if people ride the bus.

Re: Toxic fog settles over Salt Lake City

#32
post #31
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instead of making those hard changes like using public transit Actually diesel buses make more soot than cars. For this problem, public transit is not the solution. (Unless you use LNG buses.)

What are you talking about? The idea is to reduce the total number of cars by getting everyone using public transit. One bus might make twice as much soot as a car, but the bus can bring a lot more than two cars off the road if people ride the bus.

Buses make about 150 to 250 times as much soot. Not twice as much. Old buses granted. Newer ones are much better.

Re: Toxic fog settles over Salt Lake City

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a westerner in beijing, i think everyone is affected the same by air pollution, though the difference is the "choice" of being here vs. not. You can see first hand the difference between the Beijing sky and that in Boston. http://sdrv.ms/10T8oof I feel more depressed in the summer time when the air pollution is high. In the summer, the pollution feels smothering and then the oppressive heat of the city can be over…

Beijing summer high AQI is nowhere near winter high AQI! Summer, you have rain, wind, and all the nice stuff that blows out the pollution. Summers in Beijing just feel bad because its hot and muggy + some pollution mixed in. We are all affected the same sure enough, but our* expectations might be higher since back home we think "90" is high, when in Beijing that is almost a clean air day. The rest of north and centra…

Agreed, about the pollution levels. My personal view is that the summer is far more depressing (heat, muggy, pollution) then the air in the winter. After 3 years in beijing, most Beijing people talk about the pollution far less, than housing prices, getting a Beijing hukou...

Re: Toxic fog settles over Salt Lake City

#34
Geographically we share the sink hole status with New Orleans, only instead of water it's dirty air that our geography grants us. One thing that drives me nuts about these superficial looks at this is that the inversion would happen to us even if we shut down the refineries and stopped driving. In fact Utah air quality has been steadily improving even while our geography remains the same and our population rises and the number of cars on the road go up.

Stories like this are so easy to take out of context. We have the single largest pollution producing facility, the Bingham Mine/Smelting facilities. Yet when that's reported I don't see people mention that it produces the cleanest copper, environmentally speaking, of any other facility on the planet.

Happily we're not burning coal to keep our homes warm any more, but back when we did Utah's air was far dirtier.

I worked for a time as housekeeping in the Salt Lake Temple and the stories I heard were almost legendary of the kind of cleaning they'd have to do in there back when coal burning was THE way to heat homes in the winter.

But good reporting, in terms of getting readership up and people turning their heads, demands things get taken out of context.

And for those people big on Public Transit they need to know that it's all a placebo. It's not actually better for the environment. Just because you don't see smoke coming out of the actual car you're ridding in doesn't mean it's not being pumped out somewhere else down the line, and to add to that you need to realize all the pollution incidental to building and maintaining the infrastructure of whatever your chosen transit option is. Many also don't realize that in a place as sparsely populated as Utah (speaking here relative to actual big cities) public transit is even more illusory. Presently, for example, I'm here in Lima Peru. If there's ever a city that embraced public transit it's Lima. Yet for significant portions of the day a great many busses and combis and all types of public transit run relatively empty. Yes, commutes and weekends the economies of mass transit seem dead obvious, but don't fall for confirmation bias, if your public transit is available all day long then any benefits you get from packing busses or trains full at commute time has to be balanced out from the costs, fiscal and pollution and energy consumption wise, from the whole of the cycle. And if you bleed a lot of advantages in a city like Lima, Salt Lake doesn't have a prayer. I'd wager good money that public transit is lucky to break even with cars when it comes to pollution produced per transit cycle- if fiscal price is any indicator of impact on energy use and pollution production from any and all corners of the full life cycle of things.

Re: Toxic fog settles over Salt Lake City

#35
A BIG part of SLC's air quality problem is that we have so much industrial pollution in the area. Kennicott operates one of the largest strip mines in the world in the valley, and their operation alone accounts for ~1/3 of the air pollution. There are also a lot of oil refineries in the north SL area that spew pollution constantly.

I agree that public transportation and re-thinking commuting is a good step, but it would be great to see some movement on the very controllable industrial pollution problems we have in a state with some of the most lax environmental laws in the nation.

Re: Toxic fog settles over Salt Lake City

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you seen the public transportation in Utah? We got a commuter rail train in 2002 for the olympics, which was pretty much limited to a small area in downtown Salt Lake, and then a straight line down through sandy. Then a few years ago we got Front Runner, which is a somewhat fast commuter train between Ogden and salt lake, but which costs somewhere around $250/month last time I checked. Buses are OK, about as goo…

I'm pretty amazed someone would claim that Trax is only limited to a small area of downtown Salt Lake.

Indeed. +darrenkopp missed the Mid-Jordan line, the West Valley line (both currently operational), the airport line (opening in April) and the Draper line (also opening in 2013). These are mostly east-west lines. Also not included is the Sugar House street car line.

SLC mayor Ralph Becker says, "by the end of 2013, we will have witnessed the largest expansion of an urban rail system in the nation." [1]

"70 miles in 7 years" seems pretty ambitious to me. [2]

[1] - http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/55680450-78/salt-lake-beck...

[2] - http://www.rideuta.com/mc/?page=Projects-Frontlines2015

Re: Toxic fog settles over Salt Lake City

#37
post #32
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you talking about? The idea is to reduce the total number of cars by getting everyone using public transit. One bus might make twice as much soot as a car, but the bus can bring a lot more than two cars off the road if people ride the bus.

Buses make about 150 to 250 times as much soot. Not twice as much. Old buses granted. Newer ones are much better.

Have you been reading research papers from the 1950's? If you get on any bus anywhere in the US, you are virtually guaranteed that the bus is less than 10 years old. The average replacement time for Municipal buses is 7 years...10 years with complete engine replacement.

Re: Toxic fog settles over Salt Lake City

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beijing summer high AQI is nowhere near winter high AQI! Summer, you have rain, wind, and all the nice stuff that blows out the pollution. Summers in Beijing just feel bad because its hot and muggy + some pollution mixed in. We are all affected the same sure enough, but our* expectations might be higher since back home we think "90" is high, when in Beijing that is almost a clean air day. The rest of north and centra…

Agreed, about the pollution levels. My personal view is that the summer is far more depressing (heat, muggy, pollution) then the air in the winter. After 3 years in beijing, most Beijing people talk about the pollution far less, than housing prices, getting a Beijing hukou...

When we foreigners get together, we talk about pollution and the GFW since most of us don't hope to buy a house or get hukou :)

Re: Toxic fog settles over Salt Lake City

#39
post #14

I'm amazed by people's ability to rationalize why it's okay to continue commuting long distances and driving cars in general, despite the toxic smog that gets deadlier every year. Instead of making those hard changes like using public transit or living locally, I guess everyone is waiting for Elon Musk to save the world with his magic-mobiles. Go ahead, downvote me for telling the truth. I got karma to spare.

> Instead of making those hard changes like using public transit Actually diesel buses make more soot than cars. For this problem, public transit is not the solution. (Unless you use LNG buses.)

Beijing is quickly moving to battery-drawn electric buses (not to mention traditional electric trolley buses). LNG is another solution, but for some reason, electric is catching on here (maybe b/c a lack of natural gas when compared to the states?)

Re: Toxic fog settles over Salt Lake City

#40
post #32
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you talking about? The idea is to reduce the total number of cars by getting everyone using public transit. One bus might make twice as much soot as a car, but the bus can bring a lot more than two cars off the road if people ride the bus.

Buses make about 150 to 250 times as much soot. Not twice as much. Old buses granted. Newer ones are much better.

As long as we are comparing apples to grenades, a 20 yro bus with hardly any emissions equipment produces about 200 times soot as a new car with modern emissions. Its one problem we are dealing with in Beijing, that some of the older buses are so utterly primitive that they do more harm than good. Thankfully, these are going away.
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