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How Doctors Die (2011)

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Re: How Doctors Die (2011)

#61

Post by philwelch »

purplelobster wrote: post #49
philwelch wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For regular doctor's appointments, I don't go to the hospital, I just go to my doctor's office. I can imagine pretty well. When things are set up with good insurance coverage, it's hardly any different than what you described, maybe with the exception of preferred networks, but in my city I've never had any doctor fall outside of the preferred network for my insurance anyway. Everything is either covered from the ins…

Well, obviously there are exceptions, but I wouldn't measure or defend a system based on the best case, but the average and standard deviation. Unfortunately, a huge amount of people are falling through the cracks. Sweden's system might be worse for rich/upper middle class people, but the average case is more than acceptable and the deviation is small. For instance, if you come in with a non life threatening conditio…

Historically, rich people from countries with socialized medicine would fly to the United States for medical treatment.

We could stand to improve the quality of care for the poor in the US, but there's lots of room to do that in the existing system. For people who have health insurance benefits from their work, I think having a little bit more paperwork is better than waiting for months for surgery.

Re: How Doctors Die (2011)

#62

Post by quasque »

javert wrote: post #46
_delirium wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree; government regulatory practice is mainly taking some of the worse edges off the inherently broken model of "healthcare as insurance". I'm thinking particularly of major conditions. I think regular office visits could probably be paid for out of pocket, but the real money is going towards hospitals, and that's also where free-market solutions don't work at all. In particular, I don't see how an unregulated…

Risk pooling is supposed to happen at the insurance company level, not at, e.g., the corporate level. i.e. the insurance company is pooling risk across a lot of individual clients. That this only sort of happens now is an offshoot of the regulatory system. Of course, a large company will always be able to negotiate slightly better rates. In a free market, whenever it is financially rational to insure someone, it woul…

When I read things like this, it makes me so glad I live in the UK and don't have to endure any of this free market bullshit when it comes to health. The system you describe is just so chillingly brutal and callous.

Re: How Doctors Die (2011)

#63

Post by 11Blade »

csense wrote: post #55

The following is my point of view. I understand some people have a different point of view, and I don't have a problem if they make it known, and their families and health care providers respect their wishes. But from where I sit, the dying doctors' point of view, as presented in this article, struck me as irrational. Axiom: Being dead is better than being alive. Under all circumstances. I personally believe this axi…

Human life is sacred. It is a noble statement. I don't think there is anything wrong with your belief (about spitting in death's eye), except life isn't measured well as a binary option (dead or alive). (dead better than life)

In many circumstances death is by far better than life.

You need to factor in the quality of life. Its really what's important.

Take diseases like Alzheimers and neurodegenerative diseases. If I can't take care of my activities of daily living, and do not mentate - why on earth would I want to spend another day on this earth.

We can keep people alive for a terminally long time with tube feedings, rectal tubes and catheters and IV medications. Doesn't make living better than death. It also doesn't not mean that one decided to go quietly into the night.

Suffering is suffering, sometimes its better to stop suffering.

Re: How Doctors Die (2011)

#64

Post by quasque »

csense wrote: post #55

The following is my point of view. I understand some people have a different point of view, and I don't have a problem if they make it known, and their families and health care providers respect their wishes. But from where I sit, the dying doctors' point of view, as presented in this article, struck me as irrational. Axiom: Being dead is better than being alive. Under all circumstances. I personally believe this axi…

You speak as if death is not an inevitable destination. You're not immortal, you know. You can't stave off your demise forever. One day your existence will end and your consciousness will be permanently obliterated.

With that in mind, do you really want to be physically and mentally tortured in the last few days, weeks or months of your existence? How about at some time in the middle of your life? It all amounts to the same thing, in the end.

Re: How Doctors Die (2011)

#65

Post by davidtanner »

benched wrote: post #51
javert wrote: post #7

As a 26 year old American, my experiences with the US hospital system have been so abysmal that I would consider not even seeking treatment for many serious conditions unless I knew the solution would be straightforward. Abysmal in terms of having good medical outcomes, and being treated respectfully by hospital staff (who tend to be extremely overworked). Plus, it's degrading to have no control over how much you wil…

Strongly agree. Last year, I had the misfortune of being sent to the ER for lightheadedness and confusion while hiking. All different doctors ran a battery of very expensive tests, none of which I was in any condition to consent to. They discovered nothing. Most of the time I spent on a bed in the hallway under piercing lights, being ignored, surrounded by such chaos that I had PTSD from it for months. Nobody was abl…

Well buddy you'd be singing a different tune if the doctors discovered a medical issue and prevented you from dying.

If you were so lightheaded and confused that you were unable to be your own advocate and get yourself some fluids and food then you probably should have gone to the hospital. If you just let doctors talk you into it and you didn't think it was warranted then you have a problem with your assertion skills.

Re: How Doctors Die (2011)

#66

Post by [deleted] »

csense wrote: post #55

The following is my point of view. I understand some people have a different point of view, and I don't have a problem if they make it known, and their families and health care providers respect their wishes. But from where I sit, the dying doctors' point of view, as presented in this article, struck me as irrational. Axiom: Being dead is better than being alive. Under all circumstances. I personally believe this axi…

[deleted]

Re: How Doctors Die (2011)

#67

Post by geden »

davidtanner wrote: post #65
benched wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strongly agree. Last year, I had the misfortune of being sent to the ER for lightheadedness and confusion while hiking. All different doctors ran a battery of very expensive tests, none of which I was in any condition to consent to. They discovered nothing. Most of the time I spent on a bed in the hallway under piercing lights, being ignored, surrounded by such chaos that I had PTSD from it for months. Nobody was abl…

Well buddy you'd be singing a different tune if the doctors discovered a medical issue and prevented you from dying. If you were so lightheaded and confused that you were unable to be your own advocate and get yourself some fluids and food then you probably should have gone to the hospital. If you just let doctors talk you into it and you didn't think it was warranted then you have a problem with your assertion skill…

You're ignoring the very lucid point he's making. Why is that?

As a UK citizen I've never had to endure such nonsense around health. I don't know what's weirder, that such a crazy system was allowed to evolve or that people defend it.

Re: How Doctors Die (2011)

#68

Post by supwiggles »

afterburner wrote: post #5

"someone breaking their ribs in an attempt to resuscitate them with CPR (that’s what happens if CPR is done right)" Is that always necessarily true...?

Every cardiac arrest that I attended ended in broken ribs.

I still get shivers thinking about the crepitus :)

Re: How Doctors Die (2011)

#69

Post by nmcfarl »

btilly wrote: post #58
csense wrote: post #55

The following is my point of view. I understand some people have a different point of view, and I don't have a problem if they make it known, and their families and health care providers respect their wishes. But from where I sit, the dying doctors' point of view, as presented in this article, struck me as irrational. Axiom: Being dead is better than being alive. Under all circumstances. I personally believe this axi…

My wife is a doctor. For her, seeing people die horrible deaths is not an abstract possibility. It is something that she's seen far more of than she wants, and is likely to see in the future again more than she wants. Despite having no particular religious views, she would disagree with your "axiom" in the strongest of possible terms. So would I. I am not religious, but my preferences include not suffering horrible p…

My wife is a doc as well. Her opinions and experiences map to you wife’s, mine to yours.

This is not about life being better than death. This is about the amount of pain and suffering you cause yourself and others while fighting off death.

Re: How Doctors Die (2011)

#70

Post by martininmelb »

csense wrote: post #55

The following is my point of view. I understand some people have a different point of view, and I don't have a problem if they make it known, and their families and health care providers respect their wishes. But from where I sit, the dying doctors' point of view, as presented in this article, struck me as irrational. Axiom: Being dead is better than being alive. Under all circumstances. I personally believe this axi…

How about if you were in a lot of pain and were told that you can take a pain killer but it would likely shorten your life (not necessarily a hypothetical choice)?
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