No, it's clear: university is not necessary. From a business perspective, universities have been a bubble for some time now: as Americans, we're expected to think and produce at the highest level of global citizens, to make our people thought workers... and yet we bitterly lament the exporting of our wealth to China to support manufacturing that we as the general public are too holy to embrace.
We sent those jobs over there and inflated unemployment by expecting that everyone in the country become scholarly. It's unbalanced and degrading to our people.
Have you ever eaten artisanal food? Real Parmigiano-Reggiano instead of shaky Kraft cheese? Real Boeuf Bourguignon instead of Campbell's Chunky Cow Nuggets? Then you understand the value of tradesmanship, of learning a craft.
If we want to take back manufacturing, to reduce unemployment, and to keep American products the pre-eminent craft in the world, we need to get over ourselves. Americans are smart regardless of our level of education. Let's stop degrading the working man, the trade skill worker, the apprenticeship: the things that make us human are the things that require a lifetime to master, not the ones that are learned from a book.
College is not always the answer. Not being haughty better-than-thous is the answer. We should appreciate American craftsmanship. Meanwhile, I'll eat the real Italian cheese while you eat the American cheez product.
-From a college graduate and Silicon Valley entrepreneur. And foodie, if it's not obvious.
Is University Necessary? A professor debates a student.
41–50 of 60 posts
Re: Is University Necessary? A professor debates a student.
#42Education is necessary. Schooling may not be.
Re: Is University Necessary? A professor debates a student.
#43I think it's important to note that "is university necessary?" is not the same as "should a person go to university?" The second question is largely pointless because whether or not the university, as an institution, is necessary is determined only by the mean benefit it provides to society. Individually, everyone is different. College is for some people and not for others.
Re: Is University Necessary? A professor debates a student.
#44[deleted]
Original comment by natural219:
Dear people who think you should just "shut up and go to college": You are wrong. We respect you, and we're not denying your experience, and you can be right about nearly everything else. On this subject, you are wrong, and please, for the love of God, please stop talking about this issue when you have no skin in the game and you don't know what the modern education system is like. It's been decades since you've been in school -- you have no idea what goes on in a modern classroom. Please quit commenting on it. One of the reasons older people get more respect is because they have more experience. They've been around the block. They know the score. But I'm sorry -- if you're more than 10 years out of college (or ~5 years for a CS degree), your experience with the system is so far removed from what it is like today that your experience is worthless. You literally know less about this subject than a college freshmen. I'm more than a little pissed about this. >90% of writers I read about education are already through the system. Their pain is in the past. Furthermore, I doubt that any education writer was receiving multiple 6-figure offers halfway through their schooling. They haven't had to make the decision to consciously throw away tens of thousands of dollars and multiple years of their lives simply because society is slow to change, and people are too lazy to think about it -- "shut up and go to college" is certainly much less cognitive work for a parent hoping to guide their children to a better future. I'm sick of it. This isn't a game, this isn't a fun political issue, this is a generation's goddamn lives and hopes and dreams we are talking about. Every day I waste in class could be a day I spend learning a new programming language, building my software business, or doing one of any millions of activities which would better myself and make me a more well-rounded, competent employee.
Reply:
I graduated college You learn things such as writing, a foreign language, social skills, how to argue and to be more than just a hacker who knows 10 programming language, but can't explain his thoughts. Yea, maybe you are great and have the 'next big idea', but sorry, chances are you are not. Most startups fail, it is a fact - deal with it.
Some classes may be a waste, but if a significant portion are, you are at a bad school. Plus those days 'you waste in class' are actually helping to 'make you a more well-rounded, competent employee'.
You are more than a little pissed about this? You don't seem to have finished school - so you are arguing about something you don't know. Most people are getting 6-figure offers for dropping out of school, they are the exception - not the rule. And if you want to go on and be more than just a 'hacker' and do some serious research and expand the field rather than exploit it, you'll probably have to finish your degree and then get another one. You think taking critical writing sucks when you haven't done it in 3 years, try taking it after 13 years - it'll be worse.
No one is saying this is a game. Yes, college is very helpful. No, you don't have to go to MIT or Harvard (neither of which is that great for real-world CS, search WSJ recruiter rankings). Those schools are known for research and business. Go to a cheap local school for a few years and transfer in to a big name school if that's what you want; when you graduate, your piece of paper looks the same. But in the end, go to a school, meet people, learn new things, travel abroad and do the things that are not what you are studying, because those things you can't read about in a book or some blog.
Re: Is University Necessary? A professor debates a student.
#45What about a CS student who gets a full-time job offer as a sophomore? Why stick around and pay for school if you can instead be paid to get more valuable real world experience.
I'm not targeting you specifically, but in general, I see a lot of people making the mistake of using their own experiences as general rules. Mark Zuckerberg's success neither supports nor challenges the value of the university. He's a unique person with his own set of circumstances for whom dropping out was a better option. It means neither that everyone with a startup idea should drop out, nor that they shouldn't.
Re: Is University Necessary? A professor debates a student.
#46I wrote the counterpoint, and although I really respect Professor Holloway's point, I really think his argument is stuck too much in the past.
As another CS student who has had the opportunity of working in many different companies on internships, I certainly agree with the sentiment that for our field of modern software development, university is certainly not necessary. Learning through experience and mentorship is by far a more effective process, though it is a lot more dependent on the student in terms of how effective it is.
However, I feel that many of these kinds of arguments are approached in entirely the wrong manner. Not everyone can be Bill Gates and moreover, not every field can so easily cast aside a formal education in favour of "spunk and effort".
Even in other technology fields such as electrical or chemical engineering, the facilities the university provides in terms of laboratories and instruction are definitely very necessary for the training of such specialists.
Perhaps these arguments need to be narrowed down in scope.
Re: Is University Necessary? A professor debates a student.
#47As a college student, I'm always torn about whether or not it is worth it to get my CS degree. Sometimes, my classes seem really useless, but at other times, I feel like I'm learning a lot socially at college.
If you can afford it then do it. Those social lessons you are learning are no doubt invaluable. The issue is that for a lot of people it's just not affordable. And it's getting less so every year. If you're well-to-do and have the money then have fun and enjoy yourself.
Re: Is University Necessary? A professor debates a student.
#48An education is necessary. Some schools are good at delivering that. Some are crap and you are wasting your time and money. And of course, lots of opportunity outside of school to learn as well.
I think "necessary" needs clarification here. What you intend or expect to be able to do or understand dictates what's necessary or sufficient. There is no necessity for an education when your goal is simply to feed yourself; many menial jobs that are entirely within the grasp of people who have no formal training or education will satisfy this need.
In more of an HN demographic context... I'm in the "socialization" camp. College/university can serve a similar purpose as attending primary and secondary schooling, i.e. to further develop your social skills with other people as you age. While this can be found in other places, I'm not sure how effective it can be for those of us who wouldn't otherwise go out of their way to interact with others.
In the vein of preparing you to do specific, non-obvious things, I would agree with you that education is necessary; I do think we should get out of the "high school -> college -> job" idea that seems to have turned into a fallacy over the last decade or two.
Trade schools can be a good example of this; in my opinion, apprenticeship is also a great alternative, though in the US those are -- as far as I know -- almost nonexistent.
Re: Is University Necessary? A professor debates a student.
#49It's really not that hard. The branching logic is simple. If you have a better, actual alternative to university, do that. Else, do university, which is an established default for those who can afford it. If you can't afford it, the debate isn't even relevant.
1. Look at current job market. 2. Look at unemployed graduates. 3. Define "established default", or better "establish good default".
That almost seems to say something, but I can't tell. Would you care to make your point for those who don't have access to divine revelation?
Re: Is University Necessary? A professor debates a student.
#50I wrote the counterpoint, and although I really respect Professor Holloway's point, I really think his argument is stuck too much in the past.
I think you're young and ignorant, you should stay and school and gain perspective before moving to the real world.
Says the person who wanted to leave school for a fulltime job but stayed because your girl friend made you?
Yeesh.