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Implore HN: Celebrate and encourage young developers who post here

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Re: Implore HN: Celebrate and encourage young developers who post here

#111

Post by ScottWhigham »

BlackJack wrote: post #109
ScottWhigham wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you don't care about mentoring young people I carefully crafted my reply and for you to mistakenly read that into it made me go back and re-read my reply. I don't see where you get that I say that I "don't care about mentoring young people". Please take the time to point out where/what part I seem to imply that I don't care about mentoring young people. Actually, hell, I'll make it easier for you: point out whe…

The part that got me to think that was when you said: > I don't care one whit about 'getting young people into science and technology Sorry if I misunderstood, and maybe we're just arguing between "mentoring" and "getting young people into tech," but I was referring to your sentiment as opposed to some exact wording.

I think you need to check your ego and re-read what I wrote without an outside bias. Maybe English isn't your first language and that's causing some block for you - I don't know. But to yet again quote me out of context just highlights how poor your reading comprehension is for a second time.

Protip: I'm not a 33yo dad who wants to start a business.

Re: Implore HN: Celebrate and encourage young developers who post here

#112

Post by danilocampos »

goostavos wrote: post #110
dfabulich wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's http://vishnumenon.com/2013/01/21/im-35-months-old-and-i-mad...

Thanks for the link! After reading through it, I don't feel there was anything "ugly and short-sighted" about it. OP was being way over dramatic. On a tech centered website such as Hacker News, it seems a perfectly reasonable position to ask someone not to rely on an emotional manipulation to get page views.

You need to have a pathological lack of empathy to view these matters as "emotional manipulation."

Re: Implore HN: Celebrate and encourage young developers who post here

#113

Post by goostavos »

danilocampos wrote: post #112
goostavos wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the link! After reading through it, I don't feel there was anything "ugly and short-sighted" about it. OP was being way over dramatic. On a tech centered website such as Hacker News, it seems a perfectly reasonable position to ask someone not to rely on an emotional manipulation to get page views.

You need to have a pathological lack of empathy to view these matters as "emotional manipulation."

Ah, thank you for your internet diagnosis. I suppose it is possible that I suffer from a "pathological lack of empathy," or, you may just be over reacting to the word "manipulate." So, let's sub in a different phrasing so you don't take it so harshly.

"On a tech centered website such as Hacker News, it seems a perfectly reasonable position to ask someone not to appeal to emotion in an attempt to garner page views and/or karma"

Re: Implore HN: Celebrate and encourage young developers who post here

#114

Post by danilocampos »

goostavos wrote: post #113
danilocampos wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need to have a pathological lack of empathy to view these matters as "emotional manipulation."

Ah, thank you for your internet diagnosis. I suppose it is possible that I suffer from a "pathological lack of empathy," or, you may just be over reacting to the word "manipulate." So, let's sub in a different phrasing so you don't take it so harshly. "On a tech centered website such as Hacker News, it seems a perfectly reasonable position to ask someone not to appeal to emotion in an attempt to garner page views and…

> "On a tech centered website such as Hacker News, it seems a perfectly reasonable position to ask someone not to appeal to emotion in an attempt to garner page views and/or karma"

This is bordering on deliberate obtuseness. This is not a matter of appealing to emotion. This appealing to experience and asking for guidance during a fragile period of development.

In a "tech-centered" community, we should do our best to nurture young people who want to follow in our footsteps. I simply have no respect for anyone who can't see the value in that. It's the worst kind of childish, self-centered worldview.

Re: Implore HN: Celebrate and encourage young developers who post here

#115

Post by jtheory »

niggler wrote: post #96
jtheory wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a nasty illogic to this sequence, but I see it all the time. A. "The world isn't all gold stars" (a.k.a. "it's a dog-eat-dog world out there", or "there are a lot of hardasses out there", etc.), THEREFORE B. I'm personally not going to pull any punches for this naive/hopeful/idealistic/etc. young person. This isn't logic; it's a weak rationalization for being an asshole, because there's a certain pleasure to…

I've seen the following happen way too often: from a young age, kids are told they are child prodigies and maintain top status in high school. Then they enter college and meet people who are more intelligent or proficient and can't seem to accept the reality of the situation. As an example, there was one section of organic chemistry for freshmen, and to get into that class you had to have a 5 in AP chem and pass two…

Here's the line that makes me really uneasy about what you're saying:

> It is better for long term growth if kids are humbled at an earlier age

You don't humble a kid. That's not an action any person needs to take, ever. Instead, you expose them to the wonderful things in the world, and they will learn humility and be inspired and motivated at the same time.

If you "humble" them instead, they may learn humility, at the same time as they learn how shitty some adults are, and you seriously fuck with their motivation and inspiration.

I'm aware this may not be quite what you meant; maybe I'm reading too much into your wording.

But while I agree that false praise is bad ("kids are told they are prodigies"), the solution isn't to cut them down; it's to show them more of what's possible (and of course, replace the false praise with simple recognition of how their hard work is paying off, noticing improvement, etc.).

You want to build a drive for self-improvement in them; not convince them they're already at the pinnacle (as if anyone ever is...), nor convince them that they're currently worthless compared to the best (because it's not a competition) -- just notice how they're getting better at climbing, show how it's making their skills/lives/etc. better, and help them along.

Re: Implore HN: Celebrate and encourage young developers who post here

#116

Post by niggler »

jtheory wrote: post #115
niggler wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen the following happen way too often: from a young age, kids are told they are child prodigies and maintain top status in high school. Then they enter college and meet people who are more intelligent or proficient and can't seem to accept the reality of the situation. As an example, there was one section of organic chemistry for freshmen, and to get into that class you had to have a 5 in AP chem and pass two…

Here's the line that makes me really uneasy about what you're saying: > It is better for long term growth if kids are humbled at an earlier age You don't humble a kid. That's not an action any person needs to take, ever. Instead, you expose them to the wonderful things in the world, and they will learn humility and be inspired and motivated at the same time. If you "humble" them instead, they may learn humility, at t…

You are reading too much into my wording -- kids are humbled in multiple ways, and in my specific example humbling happens when they meet other exemplary people. It's not about cutting down people to size, but rather reframing their understanding of what is possible.

Re: Implore HN: Celebrate and encourage young developers who post here

#117

Post by goostavos »

danilocampos wrote: post #114
goostavos wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, thank you for your internet diagnosis. I suppose it is possible that I suffer from a "pathological lack of empathy," or, you may just be over reacting to the word "manipulate." So, let's sub in a different phrasing so you don't take it so harshly. "On a tech centered website such as Hacker News, it seems a perfectly reasonable position to ask someone not to appeal to emotion in an attempt to garner page views and…

> "On a tech centered website such as Hacker News, it seems a perfectly reasonable position to ask someone not to appeal to emotion in an attempt to garner page views and/or karma" This is bordering on deliberate obtuseness. This is not a matter of appealing to emotion. This appealing to experience and asking for guidance during a fragile period of development. In a "tech-centered" community , we should do our best t…

Oh, I just realized that your OP.. That makes a little more sense...

>I simply have no respect for anyone who can't see the value in that. It's the worst kind of childish, self-centered worldview.

I stand by my original statement of your tendency toward hyperbole.

It's fine that you feel the need to be all high and mighty about this, and tout on about your various respect hierarchies and where others fall into them, but at the end of the day, you're really wetting your pants over nothing. Honestly, I think you just lack reading comprehension, or maybe you just want attention yourself? However, I will refrain from internet diagnosing you.

You know what the other guy's post said? You should really re-read it. It said they should come as equals and be judged accordingly. There you go; That's pretty much the summary. Whether or not you agree with it, is that position really as ugly as you make it, or are you simply overreacting? Did it really warrant calling him out in a public forum? I understand white-knighting, and "Won't someone think of the frail, helpless children!" mentality, but Jesus, man..

One guy says, "Don't coddle them."

You say, "That guy is childish and selfish! Coddle them"

There's the summary of this thread. Calm down, my man. Difference of opinion does not an asshole make.

Re: Implore HN: Celebrate and encourage young developers who post here

#118

Post by danilocampos »

goostavos wrote: post #117
danilocampos wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "On a tech centered website such as Hacker News, it seems a perfectly reasonable position to ask someone not to appeal to emotion in an attempt to garner page views and/or karma" This is bordering on deliberate obtuseness. This is not a matter of appealing to emotion. This appealing to experience and asking for guidance during a fragile period of development. In a "tech-centered" community , we should do our best t…

Oh, I just realized that your OP.. That makes a little more sense... >I simply have no respect for anyone who can't see the value in that. It's the worst kind of childish, self-centered worldview. I stand by my original statement of your tendency toward hyperbole. It's fine that you feel the need to be all high and mighty about this, and tout on about your various respect hierarchies and where others fall into them,…

> Difference of opinion does not an asshole make.

On this we agree. That's not what makes the asshole.

> I think you just lack reading comprehension

> coddle them

If you think advocating mentorship over hostility is me wanting to "coddle" people, you've got a lot of nerve throwing around phrases like "reading comprehension."

Re: Implore HN: Celebrate and encourage young developers who post here

#119

Post by goostavos »

danilocampos wrote: post #118
goostavos wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I just realized that your OP.. That makes a little more sense... >I simply have no respect for anyone who can't see the value in that. It's the worst kind of childish, self-centered worldview. I stand by my original statement of your tendency toward hyperbole. It's fine that you feel the need to be all high and mighty about this, and tout on about your various respect hierarchies and where others fall into them,…

> Difference of opinion does not an asshole make. On this we agree. That's not what makes the asshole. > I think you just lack reading comprehension > coddle them If you think advocating mentorship over hostility is me wanting to "coddle" people, you've got a lot of nerve throwing around phrases like "reading comprehension."

Welp, I think I'm going to cut it off here. Clearly we're not getting through to each other, and I prefer to do my mindless arguing on other websites.

I urge you to read through his posting again (slowly). You're phrasing (or closer, shoehorning) his article and your response as a mentorship versus hostility debate, but it feels a bit straw-man-ish misrepresentation to me. Let's keep shifting the other author's position to the "evil" side.

Though, again, perhaps I'm wrong. Maybe it was a "terrible," "ugly," and (now apparently) "hostile" article. However, you'd need to point out the directly hostile parts to me, in that case. Because I missed them.

>That's not what makes the asshole.

Oh, you. So cheeky.

Re: Implore HN: Celebrate and encourage young developers who post here

#120

Post by jtheory »

niggler wrote: post #116
jtheory wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the line that makes me really uneasy about what you're saying: > It is better for long term growth if kids are humbled at an earlier age You don't humble a kid. That's not an action any person needs to take, ever. Instead, you expose them to the wonderful things in the world, and they will learn humility and be inspired and motivated at the same time. If you "humble" them instead, they may learn humility, at t…

You are reading too much into my wording -- kids are humbled in multiple ways, and in my specific example humbling happens when they meet other exemplary people. It's not about cutting down people to size, but rather reframing their understanding of what is possible.

Thanks; I agree totally with that. The important thing is that this can be really misleading:

> And holding back criticisms now really does a disservice later in life.

Holding back criticism isn't the problem; their limited understanding of the world is. Once you name the problem, the best solutions look quite different; there's no need to tell them their work is low-to-mediocre; they'll be saying it themselves (but with a drive to improve).

There are also still people who will be nasty to kids with the idea of "toughening them up"; this is crap as well (kids can better deal with shitty behavior if they have a solid idea of what is non shitty behavior, and if they haven't been traumatized into having intense emotional responses in conflict), but I don't have time to get into that in depth here....

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