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What we discovered about InstallMonetizer

news.ycombinator.com

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Re: What we discovered about InstallMonetizer

#171

Post by SparrowOS »

I don't like your attitude.

God says... C:\Text\2CITIES.TXT

nded by the shining Bull's Eye of their Court, a glittering multitude of laughing ladies and fine lords; and in jewels and silks and powder and splendour and elegantly spurning figures and handsomely disdainful faces of both sexes, the mender of roads bathed himself, so much to his temporary intoxication, that he cried Long live the King, Long live the Queen, Long live everybody and everything! as if he had never heard of ubiquitous Jacques in his time. Then, there were gardens, courtyards, terrac

Re: What we discovered about InstallMonetizer

#172

Post by SyneRyder »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #143
niggler wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something seems off here, reminiscent of Rupert Murdoch's testimony regarding phone hacking. Being troubled is easy to say, but the fact that a company he has invested in is engaging in questionable activities doesn't really jive well with PGs claims regarding office hours. Not to say that he isn't genuinely troubled, but I would have hoped YC would inculcate his values (which, if they did act in accordance with PG's…

Are you seriously, unironically comparing PG to Rupert Murdoch? Have you hit your head on something particularly hard recently? The facts here are simple: 1. There are somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 startups in the current YC batch ( http://ycombinator.com/w13smaller.html ). 2. They are all coached by around 7 active partners ( http://ycombinator.com/w13smaller.html ) and perhaps some program alumni. 3. But thos…

"If IM wasn't mentioned during the application or interview process, how reasonable is it to expect YC to have known about it?"

It's listed on the LinkedIn pages of both co-founders as their current business, together with AdMonetizer as a previous business. I assumed that checking the LinkedIn pages of applicants and taking a brief look at the websites of their businesses would be a minimum background check, but I guess I assumed incorrectly.

Re: What we discovered about InstallMonetizer

#173

Post by Dylan16807 »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #141
jvrossb wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like you may be right for the wrong reasons. "Any software that is desirable on its own will be sought out on its own." is the prelude to many a failed software project. People say the same thing about films, games, apps, etc... and it's almost universally untrue. If you are right, it's not because no good software aught to be promoted and thus this (and by extension of your logic most any type of promotion) c…

I'd say that piggybacking on installation process is not a valid way of promoting other software. If I go to the cinema to see movie X, I don't want to have to see half X, than Y, than other half of X, just because the distributor thought that Y ought to be promoted. Sure, advertise the crap out of your product, but do it in contexts where people expect to see them. It's like I'd let a friend through my doorstep, and…

Perhaps you've heard of this thing called 'movie previews'.

Re: What we discovered about InstallMonetizer

#174

Post by SyneRyder »

jessedhillon wrote: post #168
davidroberts wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've earned several hundred thousand dollars directly from customers by doing honest work. I guess that means I can say that taking advantage of a person's lack of computer expertise to crowd his computer with toolbars, hijacking his search efforts, and making his web browsing slow to a crawl just to make a buck is very sleazy behavior.

Uh. No you could already say that. You are also qualified to talk about how hard it is to earn money and find customers for whom you can deliver value. You can also now maybe talk about the balancing act that occurs when you take on outside money, start a new product, or look for customer money in places that are less-than-promising. Perhaps you can also talk about what it's like to have to do things you might find d…

"Perhaps you can also talk about what it's like to have to do things you might find distasteful and work with people you might otherwise not choose, so the business can stay afloat."

Maybe the business shouldn't stay afloat, maybe it should wind itself down.

I say this as someone who was approached by InstallMonetizer in 2011/2012 to add IM to the installers of my Windows apps. I declined, of course, because I wouldn't want to trick my customers with the tactics that InstallMonetizer uses. Tricking customers with EULA-like 'offer screens' to install browser toolbars is wrong.

I would rather close down my business than treat my customers that way.

Re: What we discovered about InstallMonetizer

#175

Post by hugbox »

The Windows app culture has really deteriorated. Even Oracle has started distributing malware with their Java installer. Applications that phone home, reboot the computer at random times, and modify system settings are not only tolerated, but expected.

It's hard to imagine a real-world parallel to this kind of behavior. It would be like if rape was a socially acceptable form of greeting.

In the future, I think all of this will give Microsoft a perfect excuse to shut down the independent application developers and force everything through their app store. Companies that develop for Windows better start thinking hard about their relationship with Microsoft.

Re: What we discovered about InstallMonetizer

#176

Post by SyneRyder »

swampthing wrote: post #79
watty wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really think "most end-users" prefer the stuff that IM installs? Come on.

"Prefer" is a higher bar than "don't care" / "not a nuisance". I don't know what IM installs - but I see Norton on their webpage. I can easily see "most end-users" installing something, seeing the opportunity to install Norton Anti-Virus, and thinking to themselves "oh yea, that sounds like that'd be useful". Just about everybody on HN is extremely technically savvy - we can't assume that our computing preferences ar…

Norton is not a current advertiser (neither is Bing or Real), assuming Withinrafael is correct about how the Offer Screens are gathered. See his post about how to download & view the offer screens here:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5086435

Quoting Rafael: "You'll find they only have 42 current advertisers... and not Norton/others listed on the site."

Re: What we discovered about InstallMonetizer

#177

Post by dmanexe »

SyneRyder wrote: post #174
jessedhillon wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh. No you could already say that. You are also qualified to talk about how hard it is to earn money and find customers for whom you can deliver value. You can also now maybe talk about the balancing act that occurs when you take on outside money, start a new product, or look for customer money in places that are less-than-promising. Perhaps you can also talk about what it's like to have to do things you might find d…

"Perhaps you can also talk about what it's like to have to do things you might find distasteful and work with people you might otherwise not choose, so the business can stay afloat." Maybe the business shouldn't stay afloat, maybe it should wind itself down. I say this as someone who was approached by InstallMonetizer in 2011/2012 to add IM to the installers of my Windows apps. I declined, of course, because I wouldn…

This. More transparency with what and how IM used to act is not relevant to the forward perspective. They carved a niche with piggy back installers. What possible positive use could such service have?

Re: What we discovered about InstallMonetizer

#178

Post by jiggy2011 »

chii wrote: post #170
jiggy2011 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, if there are less VCs and incubators willing to fund these companies then these companies will find it harder to get favourable terms, therefor there is less incentive to start these sorts of business.

The problem with your logic is that if these ethically grey business models are profitable, you have to agree that the less morally demanding VC will indeed fund them (after all, profit is profit). Eventually, YC might still have their high ethical standards, but its the unscrupulous VC that makes the most dough. And the market selects for those who makes the most dough, not those who has the highest moral standing.

Well, YC does not control the entire market but they are certainly prominent in it and seem to have no lack of interest from investors and entrepreneurs.

I think what YC does probably does send stronger signals to the market through the startups they invest in than it does through pure dollars and cents.

Re: What we discovered about InstallMonetizer

#179

Post by dgunn »

pg wrote: post #16
SandB0x wrote: post #4

I think people will be wondering if this resembles the founders' ideas when they were funded by you, and if this represents the kind of company you wish to be funding. You may of course defend the product on technical grounds (accept buttons, EULAs, etc) but I find it hard to believe that you truly think it is anything but a nuisance to end-users.

They're working on something new, and all the office hours I had with them were about that. They're not even in our database of companies as InstallMonetizer but as the new thing. (I'm not sure if I can say the name because it may not be launched yet.) I knew they had some previous product that was called a Windows installer, but I don't think we ever talked about what it did. The whole world of Windows software seem…

I suspect people registering a domain on GoDaddy will have a much higher probability of being technically inclined and able to know what to pay for and what they don't need. Further, GoDaddy will recommend products which are relevant to someone who does or will be managing a website etc..

This is worse than that. I know the types of people who have browsers full of ask.com/aol/etc toolbars. They aren't technically inclined. They don't even recall how those toolbars ever came to be there and they never wanted them.

They aren't able to see through the tricks. They want to download software. They know that's the goal. Installers simply have to keep offering them opportunities to download software and they'll keep agreeing to it to achieve their goal.

Re: What we discovered about InstallMonetizer

#180

Post by taproot »

niggler wrote: post #163
taproot wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There literally is no way to do what IM is trying to do without somehow engaging in questionable behavior For starters, default to not install the crapware. Alternatively, instead of creating more required user actions than necessary. While the software is installing, show splash screen type adverts of software the user may also be interested in installing with a way to add them to the install queue on the fly or s…

The customers (advertisers) actively push for insidious installation methods. Legitimate software developers don't advertise using those methods (have you ever seen an ad for WinEdt?), preferring google or other direct methods. So the population IM attracts are precisely those unscrupulous developers and programs that profit from questionable behavior. Working in a proper manner runs counter to their customers' goals…

Legitimate software producers do use similar methods I outlined above. Examples, and correct me if I'm wrong, my memory is quite shaky on this subject, ubuntu installer, steam installer, most PC games, and I think even the open office installer uses similar.

The examples are usually just advertising other products they own, or features within their software so not exactly direct examples but its not a huge jump by any means.

While I agree the population of customers they will attract are those shady toolbar guys, it certainly doesn't follow that they cannot make a business out of pushing good software. I think as long as they tailor the ads to relating software or software people will likely install alongside the current piece it could work. Taking the high road could even payout bigtime down the line when more developers catch on and realise it won't detract from their image/brand by using such a service.

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