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Implore HN: Celebrate and encourage young developers who post here

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Re: Implore HN: Celebrate and encourage young developers who post here

#81
post #63
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you give a teenage beginner different feedback than a seasoned professional.

Then a better way to approach the situation is "I'm new, what do you think of ..." instead of "I'm X-teen, isn't what I did awesome!"

That may be true, but humility is not one of the virtues typically associated with adolescence. When they tell you they're a teenager, they're asking you to go easy on them, and there's nothing wrong with that. That doesn't mean they can't also be proud of what they did.

Re: Implore HN: Celebrate and encourage young developers who post here

#82
post #75
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you give a teenage beginner different feedback than a seasoned professional.

This implies that 'not' being a teenager makes you a 'seasoned professional'. What makes you seasoned is experience, a 14 year old can be more experienced in programming than someone who is 50 and just starting out, and is likely able to get more advanced in much less time. I find the younger ones pick up new ideas faster than some other generations, and can get more 'experience' than I can in a shorter amount of tim…

No it doesn't. Those were two categories of people you would give very different feedback. You would give a 50 year old beginner advice more like the teenager, probably, but still not the same. For one thing, you'd expect them to be a bit less brash about what they've done, because we rightly expect adults to have a bit more perspective on their place in the world. And in fact, we see lots of posts here saying "I've been programming 6 months, look what I did." And when we do, the tone is usually quite different on their part. They know they have a lot to learn, etc.

In my experience as a teacher, I would say that the most success I've had with teenagers was when I was able to show them that I trusted them to do a good job, and that I acknowledged that they could function on a higher level than a child. That doesn't mean I treated them the same as adults, because they're not. Let me give you an example:

When I was in high school, I was among the best young musicians in my state. I was twice ranked principal in the All State Orchestra, and I ended up going to one of the top music schools in the country. I won awards and scholarships and was praised by all, yada yada.

And yet, when I listen to recordings of myself play from that time, I am struck by two things -- one, that I was amazingly self assured, and two, that I sounded terrible. I couldn't hold a candle to any pro in any orchestra you could name. When you're a teenager, you suck at everything that is worth doing. You also suck at recognizing that fact, and are hormonally hard wired to not be able to examine your weaknesses. There are exceptions to the rule, always, but anyone in any kind of advisory capacity to a young person needs to recognize that and treat them accordingly. The last thing a kid who loves doing something needs is to be shown that they suck. Once they have a bit more skin in the game, the self examination can start.

Re: Implore HN: Celebrate and encourage young developers who post here

#83
post #64
post #61

Should age be included in a post's title ? In most cases, the age can be disclosed in the comments without losing any information, and in the process removing any 'negative' connotations. I posted something on the thread that started this whole dance a day or so ago, however it probably merits further expansion. Most arguments that are 'pro' age disclosure boil down to "We should treat younger members of the communit…

I'm pretty sure that you do not think the correct response to a title including an age is to rant at the poster, to be rude and aggressive. It's possible to express dissatisfaction with a title and to encourage better posting habits without being a jerk. I agree with your summary. The problem isn't with HN being jerks to young people. The problem is with HN being jerks to anyone.

I agree that the correct response is definitely not being rude and aggressive, and that is true in pretty much every situation anyone ever comes across.

The main problem I think we have is that posts will continue to be 'link-baity' and some of those will be related to age. Each time one of these hits the front page the community will need to respond to it, and for the near future that response seems likely to be a reignition of this debate.

How do we educate 'drive-by-posters' who create an account simply to post an article (potentially with a link-bait title)? Is it up to moderators to change the title? Users to flag it? Should we just keep arguing about age in post titles?

I don't know the answer, but I think reasonable application of the posting guidelines is appropriate, and for me that means keeping the post title as relevant as possible. Most of the time, the age of the poster/developer is not relevant enough to be in the post title.

Re: Implore HN: Celebrate and encourage young developers who post here

#84
post #65
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Positive reinforcement and pleasant feedback are how people grow, not some type of angry neckbeard behavior. Everybody knows the professionals are superior, so we ought to kindly and gently nudge the newcomers to the same level of excellence.

First: Praise given always is meaningless. Second: Criticism is not always 'angry' Third: Consider dealing with the crass criticism as a life lesson. Fourth: Mindless praise is not going to help you grow Fifth: How you present something will often determine the type of response you get. You are going to leave kindergarten some day, the world isn't all gold stars. You are going to have to deal with people giving a cri…

There's a nasty illogic to this sequence, but I see it all the time.

A. "The world isn't all gold stars" (a.k.a. "it's a dog-eat-dog world out there", or "there are a lot of hardasses out there", etc.), THEREFORE

B. I'm personally not going to pull any punches for this naive/hopeful/idealistic/etc. young person.

This isn't logic; it's a weak rationalization for being an asshole, because there's a certain pleasure to being an asshole and cutting others down to size.

Is there really just a black/white choice between "crass criticism" and "mindless praise"?

Of course not. What about this: filter whatever critique you have to offer down to what's useful to a 14 year old (or whatever they are), and present it with kindness.

Re: Implore HN: Celebrate and encourage young developers who post here

#85
post #79
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how is a response of "That's pretty good for a 14 year old" of any help? If the critique should not take into account the age of the creator, then why should the request for the critique mention it? Shouldn't everyone who shows initiative and a willingness to learn be encouraged through respectful and civil feedback, regardless of whether they're 14 or 40?

I think it is the fact that they are "new" at this. For me, if they put "First App" instead of "I am 14" in the title, it would be the same thing. The point is to help encourage new, and usually young, people with programming and technology. The kid is probably just seeking more attention and praise by including the "I am 14 years old" in the header, but underneath, they are still looking for valid critique. I do not…

I think a 14 year old should be given different privilege over a 40 year old. The 40 year old already has a life and a lifestyle, probably has kids, a job, and is fairly set in his ways (generalizing here). The 14 year old? - he's in high school and has the option of studying anything and becoming anything.

That 14 year old might go to a hackathon next week, meet lots of kids/young adults like him, hack even more, study comp sci (or not), and become a terrific engineer who builds awesome stuff. Or maybe his hobby dies out and he becomes a doctor or a psychologist or something. Doesn't matter. The point is that the 14 year old is far more malleable than the 40 year old, and we can make a much bigger positive impact on younger kids than we can on 40 year olds.

To the 14 year old, "First App" is probably synonymous with "I am 14." Give these kids a break.

Re: Implore HN: Celebrate and encourage young developers who post here

#86
post #54
post #46

That blog article was one of the stupidest things I've ever read. I never got the encouragement or support to pursue my hobbies at a young age, whether from parents or friends, and would've killed to have a community like this that could've praised me and pushed me forward. To accuse a kid mentioning the fact that he's 14 in his submission title as being manipulative really reflects on how out of touch you are with t…

We're not these children's daddies though, are we? Did you run up to every adult expecting praise? Did they give it to you? This is a group of, by and large, professionals. They are going to look at it in a critical light. If you want critical feedback, this is the forum to show it to. If you want coddling and nothing but positive reinforcement, stick with your parents, teachers and friends.

When did being a professional mean giving feedback from a critical slant? In my professional career I've found advice is taken best when it is: a. asked for b. fully encompassing both good and bad aspects

If one can only see the bad in something then I'm not sure how much of a professional they are. There's a difference between coddling and giving balanced feedback.

Re: Implore HN: Celebrate and encourage young developers who post here

#87
post #63
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you give a teenage beginner different feedback than a seasoned professional.

Then a better way to approach the situation is "I'm new, what do you think of ..." instead of "I'm X-teen, isn't what I did awesome!"

It's different, though in both cases their being new matters to the feedback you can give.

A 50-year-old just starting out as a developer has already established to themselves that they can survive in the world as an adult; they have a history of successes (and failures, put into perspective over time...) that provide a base to their ego when they're criticized.

A teenager has no context, yet -- no way to assess their own value; a minor success may make them feel like they've conquered the world, but it's fragile. If you tell them it's shit, and they haven't actually done anything worthwhile, they'll may well also accept that completely and be devastated.

I run across teenagers who are surprisingly grounded now & again, but I know I certainly didn't feel like I had solid footing (and could navigate unkind criticism without being seriously hurt) until after I was out of college... and learned I could actually cut it in the real world.

Re: Implore HN: Celebrate and encourage young developers who post here

#88

Getting young people into science and technology is the single greatest professional duty any technologist has. What? I don't understand this at all. The "single greatest professional duty any technologist" has is unique to that "technologist". If, for example, I'm a 23yo kid who just graduated uni and in my first job, do you think for a second that I give a #$(* about "getting young people into science and technolog…

I'm a 19 year old and when I got into college I remember thinking that I would love to interview prospective students after I graduated.

Maybe you don't care about mentoring young people, but there are certainly many, many people who care a lot about that.

Re: Implore HN: Celebrate and encourage young developers who post here

#89
post #46

That blog article was one of the stupidest things I've ever read. I never got the encouragement or support to pursue my hobbies at a young age, whether from parents or friends, and would've killed to have a community like this that could've praised me and pushed me forward. To accuse a kid mentioning the fact that he's 14 in his submission title as being manipulative really reflects on how out of touch you are with t…

Great post, but... Power Rangers and Nerf guns? At 14? You might be off by 4 or 5 years. ;)

I'm not sure what about the programming/tech community fosters this culture of wanting to one-up someone who comes along with their work. It's even sadder when they try to one-up a child.

Re: Implore HN: Celebrate and encourage young developers who post here

#90
post #65
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Positive reinforcement and pleasant feedback are how people grow, not some type of angry neckbeard behavior. Everybody knows the professionals are superior, so we ought to kindly and gently nudge the newcomers to the same level of excellence.

First: Praise given always is meaningless. Second: Criticism is not always 'angry' Third: Consider dealing with the crass criticism as a life lesson. Fourth: Mindless praise is not going to help you grow Fifth: How you present something will often determine the type of response you get. You are going to leave kindergarten some day, the world isn't all gold stars. You are going to have to deal with people giving a cri…

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