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The forbidden railway: Vienna - Pyongyang (2008)

vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.de

11–20 of 37 posts

Re: The forbidden railway: Vienna - Pyongyang (2008)

#11

It's great as long as you know you are not getting a full picture. You see what they want you to see, if you think any different you are delusional. If you approach anyone on the street, you will most likely get them in trouble and it's very unlikely for them to tell the truth (even "the veggies are kinda brownish" is subversion and by now they have seen what happens to their "subversive" neighbors and maybe family m…

Actually, deeper into the article you can see that the arrival from an unexpected direction caused so much confusion that you get this quote:

"And we? We were standing next to the sleeping-car at the regauging facility of Tumangan. No soldier, no guide, no conductor... nobody took care of us or what we did...

We were really surprised about so much freedom in North Korea! Usually something like that is totally impossible for tourists in North Korea..."

And yes, this is followed by the explanation of a typical tourist experience.

Re: The forbidden railway: Vienna - Pyongyang (2008)

#12
post #8

It's great as long as you know you are not getting a full picture. You see what they want you to see, if you think any different you are delusional. If you approach anyone on the street, you will most likely get them in trouble and it's very unlikely for them to tell the truth (even "the veggies are kinda brownish" is subversion and by now they have seen what happens to their "subversive" neighbors and maybe family m…

History will judge us very harshly for what we have all allowed to happen in north korea. Everyone should see Adrian Hong's speech: http://www.c-spanvideo.org/clip/4170683 He's co-founded a NGO that helps escapees from dprk. One challenge I always have when I speak about North Korea is I run out of adjectives for how bad things are. And many of you that follow policy or human rights situations oftentimes get jaded wi…

> History will judge us very harshly for what we have all allowed to happen in north korea.

Is there any way of stopping it short of a bloody, protracted war?

Re: The forbidden railway: Vienna - Pyongyang (2008)

#13
I really had no idea how horrible the humanitarian crisis in North Korea really was until I began reading about it yesterday after checking out the blog post that was on the front page here. I feel ashamed I have been ignorant for so long.

In summary of what I've learned, it's generally accepted that there are around 200,000 people kept in active concentration camps [1]. There are two types of camps: those for political prisoners (and those related to suspected defectors, because you're guilty by association with the convicted individual) held until they die, and re-education camps for "minor" offenses. Regardless of the prisoner classification, both are subject to a similarly deplorable fate.

Conditions are eerily reminiscent of concentration camps operated by Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.

This includes: 1) Constant threat of public execution at the whims of guards. 2) Deplorable conditions including: lack of suitable sleeping areas, lack of general access to toilets except on a twice daily basis. 3) Malnutrition. Amnesty reports 40% of inmates die due to malnutrition. Highly rationed diet consisting of 100 grams of corn (if you're not being punished) and salt soup. Finding and eating rats raw is generally considered a blessing, but at the risk of punishment by guards. 4) Torturing prisoners is commonplace. Without going into the gory details, suffice it to say, it is horrible. 5) Human experimentation performed on prisoners a la Dr. Mengele. 6) Infanticide of babies born in captivity.

I remember when I first learned about the Holocaust in school and wondered how in the hell did the world stand by for so long while these atrocities were being committed? Now I understand.

When you are, by pure randomness, lucky enough to be living in a part of the world where these horrible acts are distant enough to barely register on the press radar, reading about these things do seem unfathomable, almost fake.

Most of what I've heard about North Korea in the past has focused on their bizarre cult of personality and generally bizarre culture. As comical as North Korea is made out to be in much of the internet, there is a serious humanitarian crisis ongoing. Given that the Korean War ended in 1953, the situation has perpetuated for sixty years now.

If the statistic of six million Jews murdered during the Holocaust shocks and disgusts you, I shudder to think about what we shall uncover after the North Korean dictatorship falls (if it ever does at this point if the situation continues) and their dark history finally becomes public knowledge. It really makes me feel nauseous to think that we always have to wait until after the atrocities end to learn from them.

Is there anything we can do? I'm sure there is, I just don't know what. Ugh.

[1] Amnesty International Media Briefing on North Korean Prison Camps http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/ASA24/001/2011/en/26...

Re: The forbidden railway: Vienna - Pyongyang (2008)

#14
post #12
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

History will judge us very harshly for what we have all allowed to happen in north korea. Everyone should see Adrian Hong's speech: http://www.c-spanvideo.org/clip/4170683 He's co-founded a NGO that helps escapees from dprk. One challenge I always have when I speak about North Korea is I run out of adjectives for how bad things are. And many of you that follow policy or human rights situations oftentimes get jaded wi…

> History will judge us very harshly for what we have all allowed to happen in north korea. Is there any way of stopping it short of a bloody, protracted war?

[deleted]

Re: The forbidden railway: Vienna - Pyongyang (2008)

#15
post #2

I went London-Shanghai (and ultimately Osaka) last year; one of the most affecting parts of that journey was going through the deserts of Kazakhstan and north-west China (e.g. https://www.cliché.net/photos/2012-04-02%20Trip/SDC16011.JPG and https://www.cliché.net/photos/2012-04-02%20Trip/SDC16084.JPG - hosted on my home connection so will be slow), which you miss by staying on the trans-siberian line. It's also a cha…

I took a train from Shanghai to Urumuqi once, took 2 and a half days; China is just freaking big.

Beijing Pyongyang is/was open to tourists at least a few years ago, they put you in a special car while everyone else gets off somewhere in Liaoning.

Re: The forbidden railway: Vienna - Pyongyang (2008)

#16
post #12
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

History will judge us very harshly for what we have all allowed to happen in north korea. Everyone should see Adrian Hong's speech: http://www.c-spanvideo.org/clip/4170683 He's co-founded a NGO that helps escapees from dprk. One challenge I always have when I speak about North Korea is I run out of adjectives for how bad things are. And many of you that follow policy or human rights situations oftentimes get jaded wi…

> History will judge us very harshly for what we have all allowed to happen in north korea. Is there any way of stopping it short of a bloody, protracted war?

The proximity of populated areas of South Korea, and the touchiness of China over intervention in the area, are particular problems. If it weren't for those, the U.S. would probably have bombed the North at one point or another, especially once the nuclear tests gave a plausible excuse to do so. If anything there was a better argument for attacking North Korea than for its fellow "axis of evil" member Iraq (on either humanitarian or "WMD" grounds), but Iraq was a much easier target. It wasn't really for any lack of interest on the U.S.'s part: for a few years, very pro-intervention neoconservatives had a strong role in the Bush administration's defense policy, and they investigated North Korea options, but presumably couldn't arrive at one.

Re: The forbidden railway: Vienna - Pyongyang (2008)

#18
post #13

I really had no idea how horrible the humanitarian crisis in North Korea really was until I began reading about it yesterday after checking out the blog post that was on the front page here. I feel ashamed I have been ignorant for so long. In summary of what I've learned, it's generally accepted that there are around 200,000 people kept in active concentration camps [1]. There are two types of camps: those for politi…

Horrific, indeed. They also put child workers in drugs fields because they are less likely to abuse or steal it.

Sorry to pick nit after this awful depiction, but this oversight is too common:

> If the statistic of six million Jews murdered during the Holocaust shocks and disgusts you [...]

Add 5 millions of Romani, homosexuals, disabled people and slavic prisoners of war. Popular history tends to forget them.

Re: The forbidden railway: Vienna - Pyongyang (2008)

#19
post #13

I really had no idea how horrible the humanitarian crisis in North Korea really was until I began reading about it yesterday after checking out the blog post that was on the front page here. I feel ashamed I have been ignorant for so long. In summary of what I've learned, it's generally accepted that there are around 200,000 people kept in active concentration camps [1]. There are two types of camps: those for politi…

It is very hard to do anything. For decades, both China and the Soviet Union supported North Korea as a buffer to keep American soldiers away from their own borders. Neither country liked the North Koreans very much, but they didn't like each other very much either, so the Koreans could play one off the other to get away with whatever they wanted. Moreover, there was no possibility for the Americans or the South Koreans to do anything without risking war with the Soviets and/or the Chinese.

This situation changed somewhat with the fall of the Soviet Union. I believe the article has a chart of the freight tonnage crossing the border that shows a sharp drop off at this time (I saw the chart somewhere last night). The loss of aid from the Russians exacerbated the North Korean famine in the 1990s. The Chinese still continued to support the Koreans as a buffer state, however. Recently, it has become clear that the Chinese have grown somewhat ambivalent to the whole situation (wikileaks, for example). It is now unlikely that they would defend North Korea in a war, but they do still think of it as their backyard. For the Americans and South Koreans, the prospect of going to war against the North with a possibly nuclear armed army of 2 million soldiers is not very appealing.

I would say that the Chinese influence is growing as the Koreans have not been able to play them off against the Soviets for the last 20 years. More and more (capitalist) Chinese investment seems to be occurring, and the country seems to be opening up ever so slightly, though the Koreans still act pretty randomly.

One final note, I have been watching North Korea for a few years, and I would say there has been a very important sign of opening up. Last night, I watched a video from a tour where the guide at a collective farm talked openly if not completely honestly about the famine. A few years ago, they would not have even admitted that the famine occurred and blamed it on American propaganda. The door has been wedged open a little bit, and I am hopeful that a new generation of leadership that has grown up without the benefit of Soviet support will allow things to open further. Then, we may be able to do something productive about the atrocities that sadly still occur.

Re: The forbidden railway: Vienna - Pyongyang (2008)

#20
post #13

I really had no idea how horrible the humanitarian crisis in North Korea really was until I began reading about it yesterday after checking out the blog post that was on the front page here. I feel ashamed I have been ignorant for so long. In summary of what I've learned, it's generally accepted that there are around 200,000 people kept in active concentration camps [1]. There are two types of camps: those for politi…

This is why I'm getting a bit annoyed with all the "visiting North Korea" stuff. You are directly funding the regime.
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