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Edward Tufte’s defense of Aaron Swartz and the “marvelously different”

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Re: Edward Tufte’s defense of Aaron Swartz and the “marvelously different”

#31

Post by jacquesm »

kandahar wrote: post #24
jacquesm wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have an extremely pointy and very heartfelt remark that I'd like to throw your way but (1) I am trying very hard through all this to not let my seething anger get the better of me and (2) it would (rightly) get my account banned so in the interest of better judgement I've only downvoted you.

I am angry too, but at the mentors who accepted the worship of a troubled young man and led him to this. Why don't you make your pointed comment and risk a ban? Please, I can take it and it would be refreshing to see instead of all this crap directed at law enforcement. And if you are not creeper out by some of Aaron's mentors fondly recalling his cuteness, you are not paying attention to what was going on there. And…

> I am angry too, but at the mentors who accepted the worship of a troubled young man and led him to this.

Those mentors are mentors because they treat people regardless of age as equals. Yes, Aaron had his troubles. But he wasn't guided by those mentors as much as that he was guiding them. There was more give-and-take there than you give credit for, you are reducing Aaron to the level of an incompetent, he was anything but. You are also making the assumption that anybody could have stopped Aaron from doing what he felt and thought was right, I think Taren's address at the end of the linked post has few things to say about that.

> Why don't you make your pointed comment and risk a ban?

Because well over 3 decades ago I decided that there had been enough undirected anger in my life and I figured out I should put that energy to constructive uses. The whole JSTOR affair and the very unfortunate conclusion (to put it extremely mildly) has taught me something about myself, that the lid on the volcano is not as solid as those 30 years have made me believe. Dumb, insensitive and uninformed remarks about this upset me and I have to work just a little harder to stay on the right side of the line.

So I won't be taunted by you. The last time someone successfully taunted me (highschool bully, he ended in hospital and I got a 3 month suspension) it was a disaster. I learned my lesson, and chose to develop in a different direction.

> Please, I can take it and it would be refreshing to see instead of all this crap directed at law enforcement.

Have you been paying attention at all? That 'crap' is grounded in a deep dissatisfaction with the way this case has been handled, by people at varying levels of power, including some in government. It has already led to an amendment proposal of the law.

> And if you are not creeper out by some of Aaron's mentors fondly recalling his cuteness, you are not paying attention to what was going on there. And now his corpse is being repurposed for several agendas.

I think you are entirely missing the point here. Aaron killing himself has woken up a large number of people to the fact that this has gone too far.

> I'll go first and welcome a ban: fuck that.

Too bad because I'd be happy to open your eyes a bit more, I think that's more productive.

Re: Edward Tufte’s defense of Aaron Swartz and the “marvelously different”

#32

Post by subsystem »

maxharris wrote: post #19

What would Tufte say about someone that tried to "liberate" his beautiful, expensive and excellent books? Would he be outraged at the sight of "The Visual Display of Quantitative Information" available as a pdf on a torrent site? If Swartz and his ideas were so marvelous, why is Tufte still charging any money for his work?

It is already available on torrent/cyberlocker sites.

Re: Edward Tufte’s defense of Aaron Swartz and the “marvelously different”

#33

Post by vorador »

legutierr wrote: post #17
jacquesm wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The major difference that sticks out for me in your comparison is that free access to long distance calls is optional but free access to knowledge is not. A second difference is that it seemed there was a dialogue going, a dialogue during which if a similar one had happened between MIT and Aaron, MIT might have found out they were about to destroy something precious. AT&T, that well-known bastion of freedom and openn…

It's worth noting that for most of the twentieth century AT&T was a driving force for scientific and engineering innovation in the US, greater than most universities (though perhaps not MIT). Researchers there won seven Nobel prizes, and two Turing awards. On a more mundane note, Unix was invented there, as well as C and C++, and the photovoltaic cell. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Labs#Discoveries_and_devel... N…

Just to add, you forgot the transistor.

Re: Edward Tufte’s defense of Aaron Swartz and the “marvelously different”

#34

Post by jacquesm »

legutierr wrote: post #17
jacquesm wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The major difference that sticks out for me in your comparison is that free access to long distance calls is optional but free access to knowledge is not. A second difference is that it seemed there was a dialogue going, a dialogue during which if a similar one had happened between MIT and Aaron, MIT might have found out they were about to destroy something precious. AT&T, that well-known bastion of freedom and openn…

It's worth noting that for most of the twentieth century AT&T was a driving force for scientific and engineering innovation in the US, greater than most universities (though perhaps not MIT). Researchers there won seven Nobel prizes, and two Turing awards. On a more mundane note, Unix was invented there, as well as C and C++, and the photovoltaic cell. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Labs#Discoveries_and_devel... N…

No disrespect to AT&T's Bell Labs and its employees legendary achievements was meant or implied. I'm well aware of what they stood for. (my first unix wm was mgr...).

Re: Edward Tufte’s defense of Aaron Swartz and the “marvelously different”

#35

Post by hect0r »

danso wrote: post #23
lizzard wrote: post #7

I had no idea Tufte had been a blue box hacker. Amazing story.

I was hoping someone here could shed some light on this. This would apparently be the first time (according to Google) Tufte has ever talked about experimenting with blue-boxes. I have no doubt he (and whoever his Stanford roommate was) had the technical chops to do it. I just wonder how he knows his was the "first"...since blue-box experimentation seems to have spontaneously come about after hackers put 2 and 2 toge…

As I recall, the first to exploit this was Joybubbles; however, Tuftes may have been the first to build a blue box. The information on MF signalling was freely available in 1960 when it was published in the Bell Tech Journal so it is conceivable that there may have been others who developed this in parallel.

For those who are interested in more on Joybubbles, then there's a documentary being made about him. More info at http://www.joybubblesthemovie.com/

Re: Edward Tufte’s defense of Aaron Swartz and the “marvelously different”

#36

Post by scarmig »

maxharris wrote: post #19

What would Tufte say about someone that tried to "liberate" his beautiful, expensive and excellent books? Would he be outraged at the sight of "The Visual Display of Quantitative Information" available as a pdf on a torrent site? If Swartz and his ideas were so marvelous, why is Tufte still charging any money for his work?

The relevant question isn't whether Tufte would approve of someone pirating his books but whether he would make a huge legal case out of it. I'm pretty confident in saying that he wouldn't try to make everyone who downloaded it a federal felon and get thrown in prison for even a day, let alone years.

Re: Edward Tufte’s defense of Aaron Swartz and the “marvelously different”

#38

Post by Anechoic »

jacquesm wrote: post #31
kandahar wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am angry too, but at the mentors who accepted the worship of a troubled young man and led him to this. Why don't you make your pointed comment and risk a ban? Please, I can take it and it would be refreshing to see instead of all this crap directed at law enforcement. And if you are not creeper out by some of Aaron's mentors fondly recalling his cuteness, you are not paying attention to what was going on there. And…

> I am angry too, but at the mentors who accepted the worship of a troubled young man and led him to this. Those mentors are mentors because they treat people regardless of age as equals. Yes, Aaron had his troubles. But he wasn't guided by those mentors as much as that he was guiding them. There was more give-and-take there than you give credit for, you are reducing Aaron to the level of an incompetent, he was anyth…

That 'crap' is grounded in a deep dissatisfaction with the way this case has been handled, by people at varying levels of power, including some in government.

Off topic, but ftr the record "the way this case has been handled" is what has me angry. This "crap" has been happening for thirty years, but no one in the tech community (except perhaps Aaron Swartz) cared when it has happening to poor, mostly minority folks.

Have you been paying attention at all?

Yes. For a very long time.

edit: fixed error pointed out by jacquesm

Re: Edward Tufte’s defense of Aaron Swartz and the “marvelously different”

#39

Post by jacquesm »

Anechoic wrote: post #38
jacquesm wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am angry too, but at the mentors who accepted the worship of a troubled young man and led him to this. Those mentors are mentors because they treat people regardless of age as equals. Yes, Aaron had his troubles. But he wasn't guided by those mentors as much as that he was guiding them. There was more give-and-take there than you give credit for, you are reducing Aaron to the level of an incompetent, he was anyth…

That 'crap' is grounded in a deep dissatisfaction with the way this case has been handled, by people at varying levels of power, including some in government. Off topic, but ftr the record "the way this case has been handled" is what has me angry. This "crap" has been happening for thirty years, but no one in the tech community (except perhaps Aaron Swartz) cared when it has happening to poor, mostly minority folks.…

> This "crap" has been happening for thirty years, but no one in the tech community (except perhaps Aaron Swartz) didn't care when it has happening to poor, mostly minority folks.

You probably meant 'cared' not 'didn't care'.

I think lots of people care, but they are not capable of marshalling a significant amount of noise in the press. The press doesn't really do its job as the fourth estate when it comes to issues like these.

> Yes. For a very long time.

So have I, but I was stupid enough to get side-tracked somewhere along the line. I'm re-visiting that now, whatever it was that I did it resulted in me throwing my principles overboard thinking that I wasn't able to change things so I had better go with the flow. Worst mistake of my life, but not too late to fix.

Re: Edward Tufte’s defense of Aaron Swartz and the “marvelously different”

#40

Post by jacquesm »

mikeleeorg wrote: post #37

I found this so touching and amazing. From http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/001552 , linked to from OP's article: Dear Aaron, I would have so enjoyed talking with you. Next time let me know. Best, ET

"There is one other chance: Tufte is giving a lecture about his forthcoming book, Beautiful Evidence, tonight. The only problem is that it’s scheduled at the same time as my IHUM final. I try to calculate what grade I will get if I skip the final. I decide that if I zip through the test answering the easy questions and jog over to where Tufte is speaking, I should be able to get enough of both. So that’s exactly what I do."
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