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Edward Tufte’s defense of Aaron Swartz and the “marvelously different”

danwin.com

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Re: Edward Tufte’s defense of Aaron Swartz and the “marvelously different”

#11

Post by jacquesm »

kandahar wrote: post #5

Oh, another old counter-culture guy who egged on an impressionable kid. How sad that Aaron's attempt to strike a blow like those of his mentors was so squalid. Kids, I'll tell you since these heroes won't: if your "hack" involves picking locks, buying multiple computers to bypass a download limit, and violating terms of use, it's not a movement and it is not heroic. Don't let these lazy essayits lead you down this pa…

I have an extremely pointy and very heartfelt remark that I'd like to throw your way but (1) I am trying very hard through all this to not let my seething anger get the better of me and (2) it would (rightly) get my account banned so in the interest of better judgement I've only downvoted you.

Re: Edward Tufte’s defense of Aaron Swartz and the “marvelously different”

#12

Post by keithpeter »

kandahar wrote: post #5

Oh, another old counter-culture guy who egged on an impressionable kid. How sad that Aaron's attempt to strike a blow like those of his mentors was so squalid. Kids, I'll tell you since these heroes won't: if your "hack" involves picking locks, buying multiple computers to bypass a download limit, and violating terms of use, it's not a movement and it is not heroic. Don't let these lazy essayits lead you down this pa…

I can understand why you are being down-voted here. The lad was being crushed by a machine that appears, to me, from outside the US, to be outrageously harsh.

I personally would say (based on decades of trade union membership and action), 'don't go alone, random, but instead organise and take it one collective action at a time'.

The young man in question may never have experienced collective action. It can be powerful.

Re: Edward Tufte’s defense of Aaron Swartz and the “marvelously different”

#13

Post by danso »

Anechoic wrote: post #9
jacquesm wrote: post #4

> And so I told Bill Bowen that he had a great opportunity here to not wreck somebody’s life. And of course he thankfully did the right thing. MIT take note please.

(I know this will be an unpopular post, so I'll preface this by saying that Swartz's transgressions didn't warrant multiple years in prison and the whole situation is a tragedy.) MIT take note please. I think they have - in Tufte's anecdote he mentions that the AT&T security person asked "why we went off the air after about three months." The implication is that between the security guy's technical interest and the f…

I think this is a reasonable post and the distinctions are important. However, perhaps Tufte would argue that he (Tufte) knew what he was doing was illegal, especially if done in order to self-profit...and IIRC, other blue-boxers who had some profit-motive were not given such a light treatment when caught.

In contrast, from Aaron's point-of-view, what Aaron was doing was not explicitly illegal. From his admittedly skewed vantage point, he was only freeing what should be public...the FBI stalking of him after the PACER incident likely reaffirmed in his mind that information that is legally available for free will often be blocked by the powers-that-be, just because.

Of course, as we know now, his miscalculation was that JSTOR's archives were not (not all of them, anyway) in the same public status as the PACER documents.

I don't mean to start a new debate over whether Aaron was at fault for not thinking things through more...I'm just pointing out how Tufte could reasonably have empathy for Aaron despite the obvious differences in motive and execution of their schemes.

Re: Edward Tufte’s defense of Aaron Swartz and the “marvelously different”

#14

Post by asswartz »

jacquesm wrote: post #11
kandahar wrote: post #5

Oh, another old counter-culture guy who egged on an impressionable kid. How sad that Aaron's attempt to strike a blow like those of his mentors was so squalid. Kids, I'll tell you since these heroes won't: if your "hack" involves picking locks, buying multiple computers to bypass a download limit, and violating terms of use, it's not a movement and it is not heroic. Don't let these lazy essayits lead you down this pa…

I have an extremely pointy and very heartfelt remark that I'd like to throw your way but (1) I am trying very hard through all this to not let my seething anger get the better of me and (2) it would (rightly) get my account banned so in the interest of better judgement I've only downvoted you.

Why do you get so butthurt every time someone says something remotely negative about your hero?

Re: Edward Tufte’s defense of Aaron Swartz and the “marvelously different”

#15

Post by jacquesm »

danso wrote: post #13
Anechoic wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I know this will be an unpopular post, so I'll preface this by saying that Swartz's transgressions didn't warrant multiple years in prison and the whole situation is a tragedy.) MIT take note please. I think they have - in Tufte's anecdote he mentions that the AT&T security person asked "why we went off the air after about three months." The implication is that between the security guy's technical interest and the f…

I think this is a reasonable post and the distinctions are important. However, perhaps Tufte would argue that he (Tufte) knew what he was doing was illegal, especially if done in order to self-profit...and IIRC, other blue-boxers who had some profit-motive were not given such a light treatment when caught. In contrast, from Aaron's point-of-view, what Aaron was doing was not explicitly illegal. From his admittedly sk…

> Of course, as we know now, his miscalculation was that JSTOR's archives were not (not all of them, anyway) in the same public status as the PACER documents.

Is there any evidence that was a miscalculation?

Re: Edward Tufte’s defense of Aaron Swartz and the “marvelously different”

#16

Post by Anechoic »

danso wrote: post #13
Anechoic wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I know this will be an unpopular post, so I'll preface this by saying that Swartz's transgressions didn't warrant multiple years in prison and the whole situation is a tragedy.) MIT take note please. I think they have - in Tufte's anecdote he mentions that the AT&T security person asked "why we went off the air after about three months." The implication is that between the security guy's technical interest and the f…

I think this is a reasonable post and the distinctions are important. However, perhaps Tufte would argue that he (Tufte) knew what he was doing was illegal, especially if done in order to self-profit...and IIRC, other blue-boxers who had some profit-motive were not given such a light treatment when caught. In contrast, from Aaron's point-of-view, what Aaron was doing was not explicitly illegal. From his admittedly sk…

I'm just pointing out how Tufte could reasonably have empathy for Aaron [..]

Agreed, I was more responding to jacquesm than to Tufte.

Re: Edward Tufte’s defense of Aaron Swartz and the “marvelously different”

#17

Post by legutierr »

jacquesm wrote: post #10
Anechoic wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I know this will be an unpopular post, so I'll preface this by saying that Swartz's transgressions didn't warrant multiple years in prison and the whole situation is a tragedy.) MIT take note please. I think they have - in Tufte's anecdote he mentions that the AT&T security person asked "why we went off the air after about three months." The implication is that between the security guy's technical interest and the f…

The major difference that sticks out for me in your comparison is that free access to long distance calls is optional but free access to knowledge is not. A second difference is that it seemed there was a dialogue going, a dialogue during which if a similar one had happened between MIT and Aaron, MIT might have found out they were about to destroy something precious. AT&T, that well-known bastion of freedom and openn…

It's worth noting that for most of the twentieth century AT&T was a driving force for scientific and engineering innovation in the US, greater than most universities (though perhaps not MIT). Researchers there won seven Nobel prizes, and two Turing awards. On a more mundane note, Unix was invented there, as well as C and C++, and the photovoltaic cell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Labs#Discoveries_and_devel...

None of these accomplishments would have been possible if AT&T didn't know how to coddle geniuses.

Re: Edward Tufte’s defense of Aaron Swartz and the “marvelously different”

#18

Post by Anechoic »

jacquesm wrote: post #10
Anechoic wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I know this will be an unpopular post, so I'll preface this by saying that Swartz's transgressions didn't warrant multiple years in prison and the whole situation is a tragedy.) MIT take note please. I think they have - in Tufte's anecdote he mentions that the AT&T security person asked "why we went off the air after about three months." The implication is that between the security guy's technical interest and the f…

The major difference that sticks out for me in your comparison is that free access to long distance calls is optional but free access to knowledge is not. A second difference is that it seemed there was a dialogue going, a dialogue during which if a similar one had happened between MIT and Aaron, MIT might have found out they were about to destroy something precious. AT&T, that well-known bastion of freedom and openn…

Finally I urge you to please watch Taren's video at the end of the linked article.

I watched it. It was certainly touching. What specifically are you referring to in the video? Or just the whole thing?

Re: Edward Tufte’s defense of Aaron Swartz and the “marvelously different”

#19

Post by maxharris »

What would Tufte say about someone that tried to "liberate" his beautiful, expensive and excellent books? Would he be outraged at the sight of "The Visual Display of Quantitative Information" available as a pdf on a torrent site?

If Swartz and his ideas were so marvelous, why is Tufte still charging any money for his work?

Re: Edward Tufte’s defense of Aaron Swartz and the “marvelously different”

#20

Post by danso »

jacquesm wrote: post #15
danso wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a reasonable post and the distinctions are important. However, perhaps Tufte would argue that he (Tufte) knew what he was doing was illegal, especially if done in order to self-profit...and IIRC, other blue-boxers who had some profit-motive were not given such a light treatment when caught. In contrast, from Aaron's point-of-view, what Aaron was doing was not explicitly illegal. From his admittedly sk…

> Of course, as we know now, his miscalculation was that JSTOR's archives were not (not all of them, anyway) in the same public status as the PACER documents. Is there any evidence that was a miscalculation?

To my knowledge, no (if you mean a blog post in which he explicitly states it). I'm just inferring from the disbelief and shock he apparently experienced when prosecutors chose to follow through.

If you mean if there was evidence whether he was wrong about the legality of distributing JSTOR documents...there seems to be some confusion about it, but it doesn't seem that many of Aaron's most legally-mindful defenders have said that freeing JSTOR was just as non-criminal as freeing PACER.

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