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Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out

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Re: Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out

#231

Post by dhimes »

pekk wrote: post #96
dhimes wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your point, but treating the symptom must be done in such a way that the problem is still seen to be a problem. Another case in point was when the banking collapse hit, 'leaders' blamed things like 'excess greed' and so on, and dodged the real problem (IMHO). I'm afraid of throwing Ortiz to the wolves, washing our hands and saying, "Well, that's that."

What was 'the real problem' with the collapse, in your view?

People smarter than I will have to figure that out. I'm talking about fairly soon after, before any investigation, we had politicians (McCain, for one) blaming "excess greed." I think this is a straw-man. The people in that job get paid to be greedy. You can't blame that, you have at least recognize that a system (regulations and work flow) is broken if it is so obtuse that people can't even know what decisions are in their own best interest.

Re: Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out

#232

Post by rexreed »

tptacek wrote: post #98
asmithmd1 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ortiz specifically has brought other cases that have made me furious. Check out this one where she is trying to seize a family owned budget motel. There is no complaint whatsoever against the owner, but about once every other year the cops bust some low-level drug deal. The motel is paid-off and owned by the son of the founder and is worth 1.5 million, therefore she saw an easy civil forfeiture target. She is out of…

Careful here. Any time you read a story like "government attempts to liquidate real property to fund police department", your first thought should be "that's not the whole story", because (for the most part) that's not how the federal government operates. So, some issues with this story: * This case is Sonya Rao, not Carmen Ortiz (though once again Ortiz oversees all the cases in her office). * The hotel is, let's no…

I've posted a response and I enjoyed our back-and-forth on this particular topic on the other thread where this case is discussed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5084791

Re: Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out

#233

Post by hso9791 »

tptacek wrote: post #98
asmithmd1 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ortiz specifically has brought other cases that have made me furious. Check out this one where she is trying to seize a family owned budget motel. There is no complaint whatsoever against the owner, but about once every other year the cops bust some low-level drug deal. The motel is paid-off and owned by the son of the founder and is worth 1.5 million, therefore she saw an easy civil forfeiture target. She is out of…

Careful here. Any time you read a story like "government attempts to liquidate real property to fund police department", your first thought should be "that's not the whole story", because (for the most part) that's not how the federal government operates. So, some issues with this story: * This case is Sonya Rao, not Carmen Ortiz (though once again Ortiz oversees all the cases in her office). * The hotel is, let's no…

Since when is it a private business owner's responsibility to play law enforcement?

If the police knows a place to be an epicenter of criminal activities, isn't that a great opportunity to do proper police work, and keep the place under surveillance?

Re: Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out

#234

Post by pvaldes »

aw3c2 wrote: post #226
pvaldes wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mother Theresa let people die slow, horrible and unnecessary deaths Instead to, err... dispacht them quick and efficiently?

Instead of treating their illness and making them not die.

Of course, well, but we are missing the point here.

To care for all indian citizens and to treat its health problems (if possible) was not the duty of this woman.

It is the duty of the indian government. The duty of the Republic of India and of all the hindi people.

Yes, I agree that having a team of volunteers "cleaning the streets" and hiding ugly pictures is very "convenient" and is not solving the real problem here: that this man, woman or child will die in a street and the government will not cares about this, probably because this human is tagged as "low chast" and "less human than me".

To charge a single NGO with the whole health system of more than a 1,2 millions of people seems not fair. Even if this NGO receives money for trying to help poor people.

I don't want to speak for this NGO, but I think that the game here is probably more about educate the hindi people that this situation is not right, than to save today a relatively few lives just to see how they die tomorrow victims of a unfair structure that tags people as first class, second class,... disposable. And, yes, you need some money to maintain this structure. The Mother Teresa NGO don't need to open hospitals, the Red Cross do this, Medicus mundi do this.

We should not blame a single woman for not doing the work of a system that rejects to treat and save a human people that can be saved. We should blame either the indian government, or if you prefer, the whole (lack of) humanity for this.

Re: Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out

#235

Post by mpyne »

dchichkov wrote: post #215
mpyne wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* "Aaron was just violating TOS" * "They were pushing for 35/50 years in prison" * "This is just like using my neighbor's Wifi" * "They were trumping up charges to make an example of Aaron" (before you downvote, read Kerr's posts). * "They were aiming for harshest possible sentence" * There was also the very nice individual who doxxed Ortiz, who I'm sure is a fine representative of all that is right with hacktivism.…

>> And in the meantime there has been very little commentary over the major (not only, but major) cause of this (untreated depression), presumably because that doesn't play into the agenda. Likewise there is little discussion on ways to amend CFAA to make it better-aligned with what we intuitively feel would be appropriate (because in the hacktivist mold the only good change would be to repeal CFAA entirely). Feel fr…

I never said it wasn't discussed, I said there has been very little discussion.

And either way, Bob Swartz is not exactly a disinterested party here.

I've lost a child to SIDS. I can guarantee you as a fellow parent who has lost a child that being able to point a finger at some person or persons who are responsible feels much better. You lose a child to something like SIDS or depression and you feel helpless, just utterly helpless. What else do you expect him to say, "oh yeah, he seemed real withdrawn last time we talked but I guess I just didn't notice"?

But looking from the outside, are we really supposed to conclude that someone who killed themself based on a 6 month prison sentence had nothing else going on inside? Do other men never have their parents die or become seriously ill?

Re: Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out

#236

Post by [deleted] »

olefoo wrote: post #216

It may be unfair to single out Ms. Ortiz, she is after all only one of many federal prosecutors; but reforming the american justice system is an urgent priority, and we must start somewhere. A society where justice is widely perceived to be available only to the most powerful and well-connected is one that is primed to fall prey to any number of severe and most likely violent pathologies. The legitimacy of the legal…

[deleted]

Re: Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out

#237

Post by visarga »

coderdude wrote: post #167
mpyne wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This week, at least, the lawyers' worldview was proven wrong and the hackers' worldview was proven right, in both the empirical and moral senses of the terms. Let's hope that continues. I've seen more prevaricating (and sometimes outright lying) this week from the hackers than from the lawyers so I, for one, hope that the lynch mob ceases immediately.

I agree with you but I think instead of lies it's likely ignorance or people blinded by emotion. Ever since Aaron killed himself people have been saying the most logically unsound things about this case and others. Such as: he was a hero, he didn't commit any crimes, others who did similar things were not criminals, copyright shouldn't even exist, MIT is evil for not not caring about the breach, calling other cases b…

> logically unsound things about this case such as ... he didn't commit any crimes

Please consider the notion of civil protest. After all, this great country started by throwing the English tea overboard. To defend this view I would like to say that:

1. he was not personally profiting from the act

2. he was doing it for the betterment of society

Illegal things are sometimes morally right, and legal things morally wrong. We need to raise above the laws when they don't fit reality any more.

Re: Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out

#238

Post by keeptrying »

olefoo wrote: post #216

It may be unfair to single out Ms. Ortiz, she is after all only one of many federal prosecutors; but reforming the american justice system is an urgent priority, and we must start somewhere. A society where justice is widely perceived to be available only to the most powerful and well-connected is one that is primed to fall prey to any number of severe and most likely violent pathologies. The legitimacy of the legal…

Change happens behind a single event. That event becomes "the cause".

You can't change society by starting from an abstract concept like "justice".

We didnt get the civil rights movements from the concept of "slavery". We got it from a bus incident in which the conductor acted like every other bus conductor in the nation.

Re: Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out

#239

Post by MaysonL »

mpyne wrote: post #175
malandrew wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's part of the problem. US Citizens have a right to a trial by jury. It's one of the basic rights. If the prosecutor is abusing their power to deny that right there is something fundamentally wrong. Trying to throw every possible crime at someone no matter how tenuous in order to extort a plea bargain or get just one to stick to improve your prosecution record is an obvious distortion of the original intent o…

> Trying to throw every possible crime at someone no matter how tenuous in order to extort a plea bargain or get just one to stick to improve your prosecution record is an obvious distortion of the original intent of the system. Except that a grand jury has to sustain that the charges are at least "better than tenuous". Once the case is resolved one way or the other the defendant can't be tried for it again (Constitu…

It has been said, not quite accurately, that a prosecutor can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich. Grand juries are almost negligible in their power to prevent prosecutorial abuse.

Re: Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out

#240

Post by pvaldes »

pvaldes wrote: post #234
aw3c2 wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of treating their illness and making them not die.

Of course, well, but we are missing the point here. To care for all indian citizens and to treat its health problems (if possible) was not the duty of this woman. It is the duty of the indian government. The duty of the Republic of India and of all the hindi people. Yes, I agree that having a team of volunteers "cleaning the streets" and hiding ugly pictures is very "convenient" and is not solving the real problem he…

Errata: of course are "more than 1200 millions" instead "more than 1.2 millions of people"
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