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Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out

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Re: Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out

#61

Post by erichocean »

jb17 wrote: post #48
thoughtcriminal wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mother Theresa once said that when she looked upon the many she could do nothing, but when she focused on the one, she could do something. The same applies here. Someone needs to be held accountable. Change needs to start somewhere.

I'm not sure Mother Theresa is a good example for anything, but regarding the general argument you are making here: There is a huge difference between helping one person (decreasing the general suffering by a tiny but attainable amount) and making one person an example (hoping this changes the status quo somehow).

I don't think anyone wants to make Ortiz an "example".

Ortiz literally did not do her job. She over-prosecuted a case, apparently for personal advancement and DoJ-vendetta seeking, that was worth no more than a misdemeanor at best.

Sure, it's a problem that "the system" allowed her to do so. But it's also a problem that she abused the system, destroyed a life, shows no remorse, and will likely continue to abuse the system if not removed from office.

Re: Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out

#62

Post by MichaelSalib »

moxie wrote: post #54
Vivtek wrote: post #6

I agree with the sentiment here, but some of the specific claims are certainly wince-worthy. College prank? Greatest prodigy of his generation? Little to no commercial value? All those claims are a lot more complicated than that! Not to mention it makes it sound like Ortiz was cooking this all up behind closed doors and everyone else was shocked! shocked! to realize how the "prosecutorial misconduct" had gotten out o…

I think this is the hardest part. Ortiz is obviously disgusting, but she's not really different than anyone else in her position. These kinds of tactics are employed every day. So what do we do? I support the demonization of Ortiz purely on the level of revenge. In a world where we typically have no agency, it's satisfying to make someone like her uncomfortable. But on another level, it's frustrating that it's imposs…

I get that vengeance can be satisfying, but it means sending a message. And the message that US attorneys are going to hear is "don't fuck with young affluent white hackers with powerful friends".

I never met Swartz, but I'd be surprised if he'd have wanted his legacy to be people that look like him getting a pass while everyone else suffers the same as before.

Re: Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out

#63

Post by fatbird »

Natsu wrote: post #38
btipling wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that the lionization of Aaron is maybe getting a little out of hand. He was an accomplished and notable young person, few would deny this, but let's keep it realistic.

Which statements, specifically, do you see as being unrealistic? Edit: I'd like to know what the downvoter is thinking, too, but I wonder if I'll get any answers.

Greatest prodigy of his generation is one such example of hyperbole.

Re: Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out

#64

Post by fatbird »

cardamomo wrote: post #4

This is a very intelligent, informed summary of the mounting case against the prosecutors. The author minces no words when describing Ortiz' and Heymann's strategy of charging Swartz with a battery of preposterous charges with the express intent of making any action except accepting a plea bargain (and thereby pleading guilty to all charges) the only reasonable approach: "[T]hey assumed that the risk of their success…

Urge your congressperson to support Lofgren's law as it stands. That would do one thing, which is defang the law they were using to bully Swartz.

Re: Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out

#65

Post by eitland »

alexqgb wrote: post #30
meh01 wrote: post #5

"Her prospects look grim. Rep. Darrell Issa (R., Calif.)"... And that's when everyone should stop reading. Issa is a tea party loon.

Issa is corrupt as hell. I mean, he has a business empire that he runs from a different part of the floor on which he has his CA office. Even by the shady standards of Congress, this is pushing it. But he was on the right side of SOPA/PIPA, and he was there before it was the safe, obvious place to be. He's got brass and he's very aggressive. If I were Ortiz, I'd take him seriously.

Is corrupt the right word here? Doesn't corruption have to be linked to bribery in some form?

Re: Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out

#66

Post by smsm42 »

moxie wrote: post #54
Vivtek wrote: post #6

I agree with the sentiment here, but some of the specific claims are certainly wince-worthy. College prank? Greatest prodigy of his generation? Little to no commercial value? All those claims are a lot more complicated than that! Not to mention it makes it sound like Ortiz was cooking this all up behind closed doors and everyone else was shocked! shocked! to realize how the "prosecutorial misconduct" had gotten out o…

I think this is the hardest part. Ortiz is obviously disgusting, but she's not really different than anyone else in her position. These kinds of tactics are employed every day. So what do we do? I support the demonization of Ortiz purely on the level of revenge. In a world where we typically have no agency, it's satisfying to make someone like her uncomfortable. But on another level, it's frustrating that it's imposs…

At least we can hope the successor will tread more carefully when it comes to prosecuting somebody that is obviously not a hardened criminal but an activist going too far in their zeal to correct the perceived injustice. Small win, but better than nothing.

Re: Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out

#67

Post by lordlicorice »

> Although each of these counts bordered on the preposterous, Ortiz and Heymann clearly reckoned that at least one or two would stick during the jury-room bargaining process. ... Prosecutors were also revealed to have offered a reduced sentence, but only if Swartz pleaded guilty to every charge

This is what really hit home for me. They weren't just filing court documents in a legal strategy to get a conviction. They were telling a man to his face that they expected him to plead guilty to patently insane trumped-up charges.

Re: Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out

#68

Post by jlgreco »

MichaelSalib wrote: post #53
Natsu wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Little to no commercial value? Have you ever tried to sell a diamon, err, scholarly article?

JSTOR sells access to its archive for $50K/year. That seems pretty damn valuable. I think that if Swartz successfully released the JSTOR archive, their entire business would have withered and died. Once you can buy a DVD on the street for $3 that held the entire thing, it gets harder and harder for university libraries to justify paying $50K/year. Their customer base wouldn't dry up overnight but over a few years, yo…

This is absolute bullshit.

There is no way in hell any university in a developed nation would drop their subscription to JSTOR. JSTOR keeps them on the right side of copyright law, keeps itself up to date, and provides infrastructure that the vast majority of university users find essential.

Individuals not affiliated with universities may find such a pirated collection useful, but such individuals currently make up a fraction of one percent of JSTOR's revenue.

Re: Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out

#69

Post by smsm42 »

tedunangst wrote: post #40
thoughtcriminal wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mother Theresa once said that when she looked upon the many she could do nothing, but when she focused on the one, she could do something. The same applies here. Someone needs to be held accountable. Change needs to start somewhere.

Someone needs to be held accountable. Ortiz is someone. Therefore...

Oritz is not just someone. Oritz is who had control over the matters and held the decision power in the matter. She's not a random bystander.
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