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Big Music Will Surrender, But Not Until At Least 2011

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Re: Big Music Will Surrender, But Not Until At Least 2011

#21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Concerts. Merchandise. Tipjoy.

Concerts: so if I understand correctly, paying for concerts is morally justified as opposed to paying for recorded music -- which apparently is wrong -- because... you're confronted with a threatening-looking bouncer if you attempt to jump a fence? Honestly, I admire the chutzpah in the finger-wagging at record labels when the proffered philosophical justification essentially runs: "I can get away with it. Ergo it's…

> Recorded music takes huge time and effort on the part of a wide range of individuals, all specialized on different aspects of the production. From songwriting through arranging, recording and mic placement and the myriad expertises that this requires, through mixing, mastering, etc.. You're telling me that all of this has no value?

It has the value, in the market sense, of the amount of money someone is prepared to pay for it. If people aren't prepared to pay enough money for some musicians to make a living as musicians, they should get another job instead. The world doesn't owe musicians a living.

Re: Big Music Will Surrender, But Not Until At Least 2011

#22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Concerts: so if I understand correctly, paying for concerts is morally justified as opposed to paying for recorded music -- which apparently is wrong -- because... you're confronted with a threatening-looking bouncer if you attempt to jump a fence? Honestly, I admire the chutzpah in the finger-wagging at record labels when the proffered philosophical justification essentially runs: "I can get away with it. Ergo it's…

> Recorded music takes huge time and effort on the part of a wide range of individuals, all specialized on different aspects of the production. From songwriting through arranging, recording and mic placement and the myriad expertises that this requires, through mixing, mastering, etc.. You're telling me that all of this has no value? It has the value, in the market sense, of the amount of money someone is prepared to…

Musicians don't think the world owes them a living. In fact I can scarcely think of an endeavour which requires more individuality and self-reliance than music. Your callousness ("they should get another job instead") and propensity to attribute sloth and recidivism to us, when all we're asking for is that people pay a fair price to listen to the music they love, is unseemly and saddening.

As for your facile lecture in economic theory: the problem, quite simply, is that people "aren't prepared to pay enough money" because they've grown accustomed to acquiring their music through illegal means (partly, admittedly, as a result of missteps from the industry itself). By your argument, whenever we encounter a situation where the technology is such that copying can occur at zero-cost, we should just throw are hands in the air and say "that's it, there's nothing we can do: economic theory dictates that this has no value".

By that argument, Microsoft Windows or Office has no value; its price should be zero. There should not, in fact, exist software whose price is non-zero. Movies, too, should not cost anything. They should be given away for free in stores, because you can copy them too.

But why stop there? Why enforce property rights at all? After all, it requires a massive investment in the form of a police force to stop or dissuade me, for example, from burgling your home. Stopping property theft requires political will. Intellectual property enforcement is different in practice but not in principle. The goal has to be to raise the cost of downloading music illegally until the majority cease to do so and purchase it through legal means.

In the final instance, if a potential customer thinks the prices charged for CDs are excessive, he/she has the right not to listen to them. But if he/she chooses to listen, then damn straight they'd better pay the asking price! -- as I mention above, massive amounts of effort, blood, sweat, and love went into creating it. It is right and proper that that work be rewarded.

In conclusion, the public should pay for albums, not because he/she "owes it" to the musician, because by not doing so (and still listening to the album, as several people on this thread have advocated), you're taking away the freedom of the musician to set the price of his/her music as he/she sees fit.

It's as if you ran into a Luis Vuitton store with a gun and said: "Your prices are too high! Give me that handbag for free!" Nobody in their right mind would defend that behaviour, even if there's general agreement that said handbags are over-priced. The reason is that it is Luis Vuitton's right, as the maker of the handbags, to determine what the price for them is; not yours as a consumer to demand a certain price and steal it if you don't get that price.

Again: we're saying: "I think this CD is worth 8 pounds. If you want to listen to it, pay me that amount. If not, then don't listen to it".

There are many ways of obtaining music legally now. I live in the UK, and pay ten pounds a month to use Spotify (which I heartily recommend, it's an awesome program and works even works on Linux with wine), and I pay another ten pounds to use napster.co.uk (which lets me listen to their entire catalogue from my browser). Or I can get the music through iTunes. Or amazonmp3. Or if I'm a hi-fi purist, I can buy the CD.

If you're too cheap to pay 10 pounds a month to have legal access to a massive catalogue of music, then just admit it -- spare us musicians your hypocritical self-righteousness. You basically admit you steal music, and then you have the gall to lecture us about "owing us a living". To paraphrase the Arctic Monkeys: "Who’d want to be man of the people with people like you?"

Re: Big Music Will Surrender, But Not Until At Least 2011

#23
post #2

Until CD sales really stagnate, all those revenue streams bring in more money than facing reality. Sounds like it's urgent for CD sales to really stagnate. Do a Good Thing today: convince a friend never to pay for recorded music again. On a less snappy note, I sincerely hope that these two-faced bastards will go out of business, along with their "360 plans" and other nonsense. The world doesn't need Big Labels - with…

This is so incoherent I don't where to begin.

> On a less snappy note, I sincerely hope that these two-faced bastards

Less snappy? Am I missing the irony here?

If I understand correctly, the poster thinks paying for recorded music is bad. 360 degree plans? Nonsense that deserves to go out of business. But if a label can't charge for music, and obtaining revenue from other sources is also nonsensical, then pray tell, swombat, where is the money to fund promotion, recording, etc supposed to come from? Should it grow off trees?

> this time by making big payola payouts to music sharing sites

Err, what? It's the music sharing sites that pay the content owners for distributing their content, not vice-versa. And if you'd done at least a iota of independent research, you'd know that the majors (e.g. Warner with youtube) are unhappy with the arrangement because their revenues to date have been minuscule.

> The world doesn't need Big Labels - with or without free recorded music.

The funny thing is you're partially right here: with free recorded music, the world doesn't need labels (not just "Big Labels"), seeing as their raison-d'etre is the creation and monetization of recorded music. Which doesn't make the statement any less silly, paranoid, and juvenile.

Re: Big Music Will Surrender, But Not Until At Least 2011

#24
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do a Good Thing today: convince a friend never to pay for recorded music again. If you do that, how do you plan on showing support for artists whose works you enjoy?

Concerts. Merchandise. Tipjoy.

I don't care that much for concerts or merchandise, I'd rather prefer the artists to spend more time creating new recordings than burning out on tours.

Re: Big Music Will Surrender, But Not Until At Least 2011

#25
post #2

Until CD sales really stagnate, all those revenue streams bring in more money than facing reality. Sounds like it's urgent for CD sales to really stagnate. Do a Good Thing today: convince a friend never to pay for recorded music again. On a less snappy note, I sincerely hope that these two-faced bastards will go out of business, along with their "360 plans" and other nonsense. The world doesn't need Big Labels - with…

> Do a Good Thing today: convince a friend never to pay for recorded music again. I do that already. My argument is that when the record companies are bribing governments into enacting bad laws. This harms others and is therefore immoral. When you buy a CD, you give moeny to the recrod companies, which helps them do this. Therefore buying CDs makes you complicit in immoral behaviour. So it's not only in your self-int…

So basically, because the record companies lobby government, the public should engage in illegal behaviour.

News flash: most of corporate America engages in lobbying -- many industries far more aggressively and successfully than music. So if you think the music industry should be shunned for engaging in this activity, why not be consistent and avoid taking aspirin, paracetamol (pharmaceuticals: avoid), avoid using toilet paper (yes, those evil consumer staples companies also vigorously lobby government!), throw away your bank cards, ditch your car, turn off the lights (energy companies, y'know)... you get the idea.

Two wrongs don't make a right. I agree that the corporate interests play too large a role in the formation of public policy, and skew the process for the worse. But liberal democracies give us a forum to address that problem; that being recourse to our elected representatives. What you're advocating is a selective and self-serving lynching of certain industries.

As I mention elsewhere, if you don't agree with the music industry's practices or prices, then you have the right not to purchase (and listen!) to the music. Nobody's forcing you to listen to music -- you do it out of your own free volition because you like it, it gives you pleasure, it, in other words, has value for you. If you feel so strongly about the evils of the music industry that you can't fathom subsidizing some Big Bad Label by buying a CD or download of your favourite artist, pick up a guitar and play that whenever you want to hear music. But don't come here with some hare-brained argument that by stealing music you're doing a "Good Thing". That's just self-serving bullshit.

Re: Big Music Will Surrender, But Not Until At Least 2011

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Recorded music takes huge time and effort on the part of a wide range of individuals, all specialized on different aspects of the production. From songwriting through arranging, recording and mic placement and the myriad expertises that this requires, through mixing, mastering, etc.. You're telling me that all of this has no value? It has the value, in the market sense, of the amount of money someone is prepared to…

Musicians don't think the world owes them a living. In fact I can scarcely think of an endeavour which requires more individuality and self-reliance than music. Your callousness ("they should get another job instead") and propensity to attribute sloth and recidivism to us, when all we're asking for is that people pay a fair price to listen to the music they love, is unseemly and saddening. As for your facile lecture…

Shameless plug:

myspace.com/thesignalsuk myspace.com/martinpercossi

That's the music I'm writing when I'm not programming! [You'll note that I don't benefit from the recording expertise I mention above ;) ]

Re: Big Music Will Surrender, But Not Until At Least 2011

#28

So their customers will continue to be artists. But what makes them believe artists will continue to need big labels' services in 2011 as they've been needing them in the past? I am just failing to comprehend where do they add value. Marketing dollars? I don't see anything beyond that. And if that's true, how is it different from VC-startup model then? Labels appear to be just investors who ask too much in return and…

- they act as a filter for good music, or at least, music that is likely to achieve commercial success. Take MGMT. Two college guys with good ears put out a demo and basically forget about it. An A&R guy hears it, likes it, and travels out to NY in search of these two college kids. Eventually, he finds them and offers them a deal. 6 months later, Oracular Spectacular starts conquering the airwaves with hits like Kids, Time To Pretend and Electric Feel. If the record label hadn't stepped in, it's very unlikely that they would have broken through.

- Contacts with producers. A good label will have the wherewhithall to get a big name producer on board. Take, again, MGMT, where Dave Fridmann did an excellent job of capturing their far-out, spacey sound.

- Contacts, contacts, contacts. With promoters, with music publications and reviewers, with studios, with other musicians, etc.

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