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California To Hit Startup Founders with Big Retroactive Tax Bills

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Re: California To Hit Startup Founders with Big Retroactive Tax Bills

#311
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Re: California To Hit Startup Founders with Big Retroactive Tax Bills

#312
post #303
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"50% marginal tax rate started around $65k" I think your friend has very poor math skills. http://www.ey.com/CA/en/Services/Tax/Tax-Calculators-2012-Pe... $65K gross income in BC nets nearly $52K; a ~20% average tax rate. This is before any eligible deductions. Even if your friend was making $1,000,000 gross salary, they'd still pay less than 42% tax on average, and that's ignoring several legal tax shelters availabl…

What are property taxes like? Vancouver real estate is absurdly expensive compared to even SFBA from what I remember (although I was looking at London Properties), so the rate is on a really high base, too. I'd be interested in an objective comparison of SF, Portland, Seattle, and Vancouver from the perspective of a startup and ~10-20 developers making O($100k/yr) each. Maybe throw in Las Vegas or Austin, for the low…

Renting is the only sane choice in Vancouver right now as most Van RE is extremely overvalued. Median household income in Vancouver is ~$67K, which indicates RE prices are definitely out of whack. Calgary would not be my choice for "cheapest case", I'd place Windsor Ontario (EST) in that slot, although I wouldn't want to live there :P. For a low-cost large city Ottawa Ontario (EST) is quite attractive.

Corporate taxes are lower in Canada, but there are other mandatory payroll costs like CPP (9.9% of the first eligible $50k earned split 50/50 between employer/employee) and EI (employer pays 1.4x whatever the employee pays at 1.88% of the first eligible $50K earned).

Re: California To Hit Startup Founders with Big Retroactive Tax Bills

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electricity is being worked on, as that press release indicates. On the hottest day or two of the year, the power might go out for a little bit. It's not a big deal. Water is going to be the biggest issue this legislative session. California has similar water problems. Schools... are complicated. That one might not get fixed, but performance is better correlated with household income than education spending. Roads ar…

Considering TXU is still being "managed" quite well by its leveraged buyout partners, "no big deal" may very well become a big deal. Texans already pay some of the highest average per-kWh rates in the country though the falling price of natural gas has helped. Unless Texas is going to take water from Oklahoma by force, I wasn't meaning a solution to the problem from the state government. Texas is in a long-term, stru…

Born and raised in Austin, still live and work here. I suppose I should learn a bit more about my own state as I didn't know much of this or the above comments...

HN: where all y'all learn you somethin'.

Re: California To Hit Startup Founders with Big Retroactive Tax Bills

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The FTB doesn't have a choice. The court invalidated the statute which provided the benefits. The legislature could pass a new statute which provided similar benefits without the features which made the old statute unconstitutional, but the FTB is an executive-branch agency and can't make up its own laws to replace ones that are struck down by the courts.

The court did not invalidate the statute, it invalidated one of the many qualifiers for a company to be deemed a QSB.

The court ruling explicitly stated that the statute could not stand under the Commerce Clause.

You could probably argue that some of the other things in the ruling very strongly suggest that the Court didn't understand the scope of the statute and the impact of invalidating the statute as a whole and might have said something different if it was reasoning clearly, but even though it might be a result you favor in this case, I doubt you really want executive agencies to start applying court decisions based on what they think the court would have ruled had it been reasoningly clearly rather than what the court actually ruled.

Re: California To Hit Startup Founders with Big Retroactive Tax Bills

#315
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's got nothing to do with increasing tax revenue - it's petty overreaction on behalf of the responsible state body - the FTB. I quote liberally from the article: > It turns out that a few years ago, someone sued the Franchise Tax Board over being denied the right to claim the QSB benefit [Cutler v. Franchise Tax Bd., 208 Cal. App. 4th 1247 (2012)]. The company at issue in that lawsuit did not meet one of the QSB re…

That's actually fairly common in decisions striking down agency interpretations. Sometimes a court will order a specific remedy, but other times they only rule that the existing regulation was illegal but leave open multiple ways of curing it. In the case where the problem was that a regulation impermissibly distinguished between groups that the law didn't allow distinguishing between, there are two ways to fix it: p…

This is not a decision striking down an agency interpretation.

The decision explicitly found that the statute supplying QSB benefits in California "is discriminatory on its face and cannot stand under the commerce clause". Had an agency interpretation been struck down, it would be fair to say that (within the bounds of the court decision and the governing statute) the FTB was free to come up with a new interpretation. But when a statute is struck down, it can only be fixed by the legislature. An administrative agency can't fix constitutional defects in statute: they have no authority to do so.

(The court could have severed the unconstitutional provision and preserved the rest of the statute, and there is some indication in the decision that they probably would have done so rather than ruling the statute facially invalid if they had been reasoning clearly and consistently. But they didn't, and the FTB isn't really free to apply what the court should have ruled instead of what the court actually ruled.)

Re: California To Hit Startup Founders with Big Retroactive Tax Bills

#316
post #204
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> applicability only to criminal cases Where do you get that? The Constitution says simply: "No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed." Period, end of story. Just because someone on the Internet says this applies only to criminal law doesn't make it so.

The Supreme Court pointed out that the law was unconstitutional. So the effects of the law over the past 5 years were illegitimate, and should probably be fixed.

Note that the part of the law that restricted its applicability was unconstitutional. The ability to offer this tax break, period, is not.

Thus, the logical resolution would be to allow those unconstitutionally barred from receiving the benefit to file for retroactive benefits. However, this would allow pretty much any company located anywhere to file for the benefit (at least to my reading; IANAL), completely defeating the purpose of a tax law that encouraged CA businesses and potentially bankrupting the state.

So: someone ignored the spirit of the law and exploited a loophole to get themselves a bigger tax break and instead broke the entire system for everyone. California was stuck between a rock (allowing for pretty much everyone to file for retroactive benefits) and a hard place (nullifying previous year benefits for those who received them).

Nice job, guy.

Re: California To Hit Startup Founders with Big Retroactive Tax Bills

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The court did not invalidate the statute, it invalidated one of the many qualifiers for a company to be deemed a QSB.

"The statute is discriminatory on its face and cannot stand under the commerce clause." http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=1745098991866615... It's at the end of section 3 (pagination doesn't work properly on GS at present). Seems pretty unambiguous to me. PS: I think the least you could do is update your blog post to remove the factual inaccuracies and correct the misapprehensions of your readers; most of t…

Hi - I apologize for taking a while to circle back to this as I think you guys are raising some very important points. But I still contend that your interpretation is incorrect and I certainly content that I did not post "factual inaccuracies" in my piece. Listen, I'm not a consitutional or tax lawyer, I'm a business owner who's upset at what's happened here. That said, I spoke to professionals (legal and tax) with a lot more knowledge and experience than I have who advised me on the facts and implications of the underlying case before I wrote that essay. I'd like to direct you to a piece by Deloitte that was issued after the Appelate case was handed down (link below) - and well before the FTB action. The section toward the end titled Undecided Issues makes clear what the court ruling definitely said, what it definitely did not say, and what was handed back to the lower court to decide. It's certainly possible that the action taken by the FTB was their only possible course of action, but the legal and tax professionals I've spoken to or read online don't agree with your position on that.

Thanks for your interest in this matter, -Brian

Here's that link: http://www.deloitte.com/assets/Dcom-UnitedStates/Local%20Ass...

And here's the specific section I'm referring to:

Undecided Issues As noted previously,16 the same definitional provisions upon which the property and payroll requirement is derived for purposes of gain deferral under Section 18038.5 apply also with respect to qualification for gain exclusion under Section 18152.5(a). However, the Court of Appeal’s decision addressed the constitutionality of the gain deferral provision under Section 18038.5 only, and the facts before the court did not involve the gain exclusion provision under Section 18152.5(a). Thus, the court’s decision did not address whether the property and payroll requirement would cause the gain exclusion provision under Section 18152.5(a) to also be deemed unconstitutional. The court’s decision in Cutler also did not address whether the unconstitutional definitional language in Section 18152.5 (and the Section 18038.5(b)(1) crossreference to that language), upon which the property and payroll requirement is based, could be excised from the statutes or whether the decision would operate to invalidate both statutes in their entirety. Finally, as discussed above, the Court of Appeal declined to decide whether the taxpayer should be afforded the refund requested or whether some other appropriate remedy, if any, should apply and instead remanded the case to the trial court for further proceedings to address the remaining factual dispute and, if appropriate, the remedy.

Re: California To Hit Startup Founders with Big Retroactive Tax Bills

#318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The statute is discriminatory on its face and cannot stand under the commerce clause." http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=1745098991866615... It's at the end of section 3 (pagination doesn't work properly on GS at present). Seems pretty unambiguous to me. PS: I think the least you could do is update your blog post to remove the factual inaccuracies and correct the misapprehensions of your readers; most of t…

Hi - I apologize for taking a while to circle back to this as I think you guys are raising some very important points. But I still contend that your interpretation is incorrect and I certainly content that I did not post "factual inaccuracies" in my piece. Listen, I'm not a consitutional or tax lawyer, I'm a business owner who's upset at what's happened here. That said, I spoke to professionals (legal and tax) with a…

FTB must act in accordance to the law. If you feel that they are not doing so, why aren't you filing a case? You make it sound like you have more at stake here than Cutler.

EDIT: If talking to legal and tax expects leaves you only feeling "upset" instead of "seeking remedy", then it seems that what the FTB did is in accordance to the law, and that you simply don't like it.

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