Live data from Hacker News

NY Congressman Introducing Ban On 3D-Printed High Capacity Gun Magazines

livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com

41–50 of 73 posts

Re: NY Congressman Introducing Ban On 3D-Printed High Capacity Gun Magazines

#41
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=8699 Plastic 308 rounds. Those are real projectiles, not dummy rounds. I do not know if the entire cartridge is plastic, though. That primer definitely looks like metal. And I'm going to assume steel for the cartridge body (wow, it was hard to think of another word than 'brass'). Now, a fully plastic gun is another story...

Thus are military training rounds. The bullet are plastic, but the cartridge is brass. They are generally not deadly, and are sometimes used to fire at people with (as a form of paintball, but that is ill advised). They are meant for training with outdoors. They are cheaper then normal bullets, less pollution then lead and don't goes so fare (a normal 7.62mm bullets can be deadly for upwards to 3.5 kilometers, making…

The IDF uses rubber bullets extensively as a non-lethal form of ammunition. I think during the Nth intifada there was a story about plastic bullets being used, with them being actually worse than metal since they wouldn't show up on x-ray, although they would shed energy and momentum really fast compared to metal.

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/09/29/world/us-protesting-israel...

http://www.nytimes.com/1989/01/29/world/israeli-army-lawyer-...

Re: NY Congressman Introducing Ban On 3D-Printed High Capacity Gun Magazines

#42
post #30
post #11

This will have about as much protective effect against the criminally-motivated as putting up "gun-free school zone" signs.

I agree with you, but this should not be the #1 comment on HN. There's a lot of interesting things going on here. But, specifically, I want to comment on the disconnect between legislators and reality caused by isolation from various aspects of everyday life due to the nature of specialization. A lot of folks complain about lobbyist, but this a critically important role they play. They don't buy their votes as many s…

I agree with you, but this should not be the #1 comment on HN.

HN comments are sorted by age as well as number of votes (and supposedly the reputation of the poster, in some cases), so being in the top spot may not mean that it's the highest voted comment, and may be temporary.

But the next time you call lobbying bad, just remember that lobbying is an important part of having informed legislatures.

Surely there's a better way, like maybe the Congressional Research Service? Or legislators actually -- and I know, this is a radical suggestion -- learning on their own about the topics on which they legislate?

Re: NY Congressman Introducing Ban On 3D-Printed High Capacity Gun Magazines

#43
post #11

This will have about as much protective effect against the criminally-motivated as putting up "gun-free school zone" signs.

> This will have about as much protective effect against the criminally-motivated as putting up "gun-free school zone" signs.

Even if what you're saying is true, one could argue that means "some protective effect."

Yes, it's probably true that someone who intends to ignore the law and most moral codes and commit a crime with a firearm will almost certainly ignore a sign and the associated additional legal penalties.

"Gun-free" school zones are not really meant to address that problem. They're an attempt to address the problem of crimes/accidents committed with firearms brought into a zone without intent to commit a crime, but that end up being used criminally anyway in a confrontation or when they end up out of original hands, etc. Given that these things happen, restricting access to firearms in a place like a school probably has some marginal positive effect (you can credibly argue there may be a negative effect too -- not having anyone armed in a school represents a targeting opportunity -- but the intelligent response to this is probably to figure out what reasonable exceptions might be rather than throwing up your hands and letting any student or visitor carry).

Similarly, I think it's possible that making attempts to restrict the legal manufacture of high-capacity clips will have some positive impact -- probably a greater one, since the larger scope makes leaks through neighboring less-restricted zones less likely. It will remain true that where "criminally-motivated" means someone with resources and strong resolve, they will be able to acquire not only high-capacity clips but probably just about any form of contraband they'd like. It's also true that by placing restrictions on the process of making of high-capacity clips, the bar for sufficient resources and resolve will be at least somewhat higher: there will be fewer made, fewer people making/distributing 3D printable designs, introducing scarcity, making it harder to do.

Would this be an absolute deterrent? No. Some people will still do that. Is the lock on a door an absolute deterrent? No. It raises the bar: you need to be more determined and you face additional risk of being conspicuous while breaking in. Seat belts don't protect you from many risks of driving. Sometimes, making improvements in the margins is how you get things better.

Now, that's not to say that there might not be other problems with any given measure. Personally, I think if you're going to ban manufacture of something, focusing on the method is probably a bad choice. There's also the question of tradeoffs -- what does it mean to "ban" 3D printing something? Does it mean every 3D printer gets a regulator or a monitor? That might be too big a cost for the benefit.

Re: NY Congressman Introducing Ban On 3D-Printed High Capacity Gun Magazines

#44
post #4

Who cares if a magazine can be picked up by a metal detector?

Let's see: Everyone who does screening. Everyone who poses a natural target (judges, DAs, federal officers, etc) whose protection depends on screening. Everyone who works in a federal building where they are not allowed to carry guns, and therefore relies on a metal detector to keep gun carrying people out. Everyone who flies. One could go on.

Things that can be picked up by metal detectors easily: bullets, ammunition casings, gun barrels, gun slides, recoil springs, magazine springs.

Polymer cased ammunition exists but is very rare and not general purpose (e.g. flechette rounds), but even those rounds would show up quite easily on a magnetometer based metal detector due to the steel content in the flechettes. The idea of a "plastic gun" is a myth that has been advanced due to the extreme ignorance of the media inducing a moral panic in the 1980s after the introduction of the Glock 17, which merely had a plastic frame and still contained over a pound of metal in it.

Re: NY Congressman Introducing Ban On 3D-Printed High Capacity Gun Magazines

#45
Honestly, I don't understand the hysteria over 3-D printers when it comes to guns. For less than ten grand you can buy a 3-axis CNC machine and mill yourself a heavy machine gun in your garage. This has been possible for decades now. Hell, you can see youtube videos of CNC projects where someone takes a manual lathe and puts together his own computer control for a grand total of $600.

Re: NY Congressman Introducing Ban On 3D-Printed High Capacity Gun Magazines

#46
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's really weird reasoning. If we applied that reasoning to highway construction areas, you'd see "vehicle-free zones" for fear of somebody speeding. But we don't, so instead, we just have "traffic fines double in construction zones." Which makes sense, and presumably people drive more carefully in construction zones. If you want to double the murder punishment in school zones, there is your deterrence. Preventing…

Well, there are a lot of crimes that people engage in other than murder, and many of them involve weapons. It's a much different thing to be caught selling drugs, soliciting sex, etc. in a school zone from a punishment standpoint. All that aside, I don't trust other parents with handguns around my children, and am perfectly okay with laws preventing people from carrying around my kids. Most of the people I know who a…

just as likely to accidentally shoot a child as they are to do any good with a weapon

You know, this isn't the first time I've heard this sentiment, and -- without meaning offense -- I think it reflects a simple ignorance of the practical realities of handling firearms. I don't know whether you're referring to someone trying to shoot an assailant and missing, or simple failure to follow safe handling, but . . .

I think maybe an analogy will help. From my perspective, it's as if someone said, "I don't want strangers driving cars near schools, because I think there's a significant risk they'll run over children accidentally." From my perspective, I know how much control a driver has over a car, how well they pay attention, the rules pedestrians follow and how well drivers respect them . . . and I'm not really worried about it. Every morning, I see bazillions of children walking to school, passed by bazillions of strangers driving cars right next to them, and I just don't give it a second thought.

The person I'm talking to does, though. He seems to think cars drive up on the sidewalk all on their own, all the time.

Sure, a malicious person could run over a child. Sure, a crazy or drunk or just irresponsible person could get a hold of a car and do a lot of damage. But those are both rare problems and not really specific to cars (or helped by laws). A normal person, in a normal traffic situation, will spend their whole lives driving and absolutely never be danger of accidentally shooting a child.

I hate it when people say, "Your opinion on a topic isn't valid if you haven't done X," but I'm going to say something really similar. Not as a way to invalidate your opinion, but . . . I really do think that folks who claim to have a serious opinion on gun issues should at least spend an afternoon at a range once. Spend $50, take a class, rent a gun, and work through a box of ammo. It's fun, and you'll learn what guns are, how they're safely handled, how dangerous they are (and aren't) when handled responsibly, and . . . well, for lack of a better way to say it, learn how much control even first-time shooters have over them.

I know that comes off as a snarky, "I know more than you" post, and it's not intended that way, really. It's just that I really do think a lot of the fear of guns is fear of the unknown. I honestly wish a firearms safety course was routine, like driver's ed, and then maybe we'd all at least understand the object we're talking about.

Re: NY Congressman Introducing Ban On 3D-Printed High Capacity Gun Magazines

#47
post #15
post #6

> announced he would be introducing legislation to renew a ban on firearms and magazines that can't be picked up by standard metal detectors. The current ban on plastic firearms expires this year. In other words, the only thing this has to do with printed magazines is that printed magazines are being used as a talking point to promote the bill. Printed magazines, when printed with plastic, would still be picked up by…

If I were making a "non detectable by x-ray gun", I'd probably go with ceramic instead of plastic for some parts, or with using more metal, not less, to disrupt the shape (which is illegal under current law, too)

There are printable ceramics as well, though I don't know how strong they are. The usual method is to print a powder and binder, then fire and glaze the piece.

Re: NY Congressman Introducing Ban On 3D-Printed High Capacity Gun Magazines

#48
post #11

This will have about as much protective effect against the criminally-motivated as putting up "gun-free school zone" signs.

> This will have about as much protective effect against the criminally-motivated as putting up "gun-free school zone" signs. Even if what you're saying is true, one could argue that means "some protective effect." Yes, it's probably true that someone who intends to ignore the law and most moral codes and commit a crime with a firearm will almost certainly ignore a sign and the associated additional legal penalties.…

Excellent write-up, thank you for sharing.

Re: NY Congressman Introducing Ban On 3D-Printed High Capacity Gun Magazines

#49
post #32

It does bring up an interesting ethical scenario with respect to 3D printing. You can ban the sale of high-capacity magazines all you want, but if it's simple to just make one with a 3D printer the point of the law is completely moot. Since the law won't ban making these magazines (to not conflict with US manufacturers exporting these) and the law won't outlaw the existing magazines, this is a huge loophole. And maga…

It would be fairly trivial to outlaw non-licensed manufacturing of high-capacity magazines. The same way distilling alcohol is illegal in the US, but owning a still, owning alcohol, and purchasing distilled alcohol is not illegal.

When that happens, I'm immediately printing off several high-capacity mags out of principle, and I don't even own a firearm (thought about it, but I don't have time to go to a range so the liability isn't worth it for me).

While I understand the intent of the law, it's a totally impractical way to solve the problem. It sounds like the majority of weapons used in violent crimes are obtained illegally so it will do little to deter criminal activities; meanwhile, it increases the liability around owning a 3d printer.

Re: NY Congressman Introducing Ban On 3D-Printed High Capacity Gun Magazines

#50
post #11

This will have about as much protective effect against the criminally-motivated as putting up "gun-free school zone" signs.

> This will have about as much protective effect against the criminally-motivated as putting up "gun-free school zone" signs. Even if what you're saying is true, one could argue that means "some protective effect." Yes, it's probably true that someone who intends to ignore the law and most moral codes and commit a crime with a firearm will almost certainly ignore a sign and the associated additional legal penalties.…

This is just plain silliness. There are millions, literally hundreds of millions, of full capacity magazines out there in the world right now. If a criminal can manage to get their hands on an illegal gun they can certainly manage to get their hands on a full capacity magazine just as easily and for far less money. They are too easy to make, too easy to store, too easy to transport for it to be otherwise.

That was true even during the period of time when the national "assault weapons" ban was in place.

Also, when you call a magazine a "clip" you immediately make yourself look like someone who knows very little about firearms. A magazine is a spring loaded device that holds bullets in a gun, and may or may not be detachable. A "clip" is a device which is sometimes used to store bullets for quickly loading into a magazine.

Post reply on HN