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AP Credit Will No Longer Be Accepted At Dartmouth

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Re: AP Credit Will No Longer Be Accepted At Dartmouth

#41

Post by InclinedPlane »

ghshephard wrote: post #38
brudgers wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the linked Associated Press article: Rather than award credit for an introductory course to incoming students who got the highest score on the AP test, the department gave those students a condensed version of the Dartmouth course's final exam. Ninety percent failed, Tell said. And when those students went on to take the introductory class, they performed no better than those who did not have the high AP test sc…

You know what I'd like to see - is a second study, in which students who got the highest scores on the Dartmouth course , with the same interval of delay also take that same final exam. I was surprised at the number of fellow students at my University who openly admitted that within a month or two of the final exam, they couldn't recall much of anything about some of the courses in which they had scored an A or highe…

Indeed. A lot of education in the western world is remarkably shallow. Blitz through a lot of "material" and busy work, then cram so you can pass the test the next day, then forget everything. It's a horrible way to "learn" anything.

Re: AP Credit Will No Longer Be Accepted At Dartmouth

#42

Post by lightcatcher »

Possibly worth throwing into the discussion: Caltech does not accept any AP credit. However, classes can be tested out of with Caltech's own tests (which were considerably more difficult than AP tests in my opinion). Testing out of these classes removes these classes from graduation requirements.

Is it possible Dartmouth is just trying to raise their academic standards rather than milk students for more money?

Re: AP Credit Will No Longer Be Accepted At Dartmouth

#43

Post by richeyrw »

andrewchoi wrote: post #34

As a current student at an Ivy League school, it's interesting to see that this is getting much backlash now. My school hasn't accepted AP credit for a while now, and it's never been a problem. Students grouse superficially, but for the most part, it's understood that they're just prerequisities to get in to the schools you want to go to.

So my daughter is in High School and she's doing IB (International Baccalaureate) does that have any benefit for those aspiring to the Ivy League or similar?

Re: AP Credit Will No Longer Be Accepted At Dartmouth

#44

Post by _delirium »

snake_plissken wrote: post #23

I don't get it. You can't make things harder than they are by their nature; sure, you can make interestingly problems, but in a discipline is a discipline. For example, general calculus hasn't changed that much in decades. The same stuff I learned in AP calc senior year of highschool, people learned freshman year of college. The only thing was, in highschool the exam questions were actual problems and not proofs of S…

I found my intro-level college calculus course to be fairly dissimilar from what we did in AP CS in high school, though I assume both can vary considerably. The main difference was that the high school course was much more calculation-oriented: a huge portion of it was just computing integrals and derivatives. I didn't find memorizing patterns for computing integrals or derivatives particularly interesting or useful: if all I need to do is compute one, Mathematica can do that much for me. What I learned in university calc, but not high-school calc, was more of the rigorous foundations of what calculus is and how it works. Part of it might be context, though: the freshman calc class was synchronized with the freshman physics and chemistry courses, so there were immediate applications where we had to figure out how to use calculus as a tool, rather than just as a standalone exercise (my high-school physics and chem courses were not calculus-based, so there was no similar synergy).

Re: AP Credit Will No Longer Be Accepted At Dartmouth

#45

Post by andrewchoi »

jlarocco wrote: post #8
wmf wrote: post #2

If AP classes don't give credit, I wonder if this will lead some students to graduate high school after three years.

And get a jump start working on their Bachelor's degrees which now take six years. Seems like the high schools need to add some more rigorous classes for seniors.

I think that the quoted statistic is misleading. For the students that are at top-tier universities like Dartmouth, the vast majority of students are still graduating in 4 years:

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/...

I think that the 6 year figure is due to an extraordinarily long tail.

Re: AP Credit Will No Longer Be Accepted At Dartmouth

#46

Post by thelucky41 »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #5

Maybe the AP system has degraded over the years. When I was in school it helped immensely and I was able to enter college as a mid-year sophomore and graduate early. And the level of material and rigor in AP courses seemed roughly comparable to 100 and 200 level college courses. The cynic in me sees this as a money making move, as it means that more incoming students will have to pay more to graduate. I'm really curi…

The main difference between AP tests and college courses is not the material that is covered (roughly comparable), but rather the format in which the knowledge of the material is evaluated.

Like most standardized tests, the AP tests are incredibly game-able. As a student, I began taking random AP tests without taking the class and just studying a guide the week before the test. I passed every test (most with a 5), but that was because I had learned to become good at the test, rather than learning the material behind it. (There are some exceptions, like art portfolios)

But myself and the above commenter (InclinedPlane) are the exception. There is, frankly, no better way for a student to demonstrate prior knowledge of a subject than through a standardized test.

Dartmouth, and all colleges, are welcome to set their policies to reflect their trust in the system, but there should be a way, whether internal or standardized, for a student to be placed based on prior knowledge.

Re: AP Credit Will No Longer Be Accepted At Dartmouth

#47

Post by Steko »

shrughes wrote: post #32
maratd wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In defense of AP tests, they're meant to replace college level courses ... not university level courses. They're equivalent to what you'd encounter at a local community college, not what you'd encounter at the top 100 research universities in the country.

That's not what "college" means in the United States. "College" is a synonym with "University." There is sometimes some word usage where the connotations can be different, but rarely, and in particular, there's no difference in the notion of "university level courses" and "college level courses."

Generally the difference is that a college will offer undergraduate programs and universities offer both undergraduate and graduate degrees.

Re: AP Credit Will No Longer Be Accepted At Dartmouth

#48

Post by sliverstorm »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #41
ghshephard wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know what I'd like to see - is a second study, in which students who got the highest scores on the Dartmouth course , with the same interval of delay also take that same final exam. I was surprised at the number of fellow students at my University who openly admitted that within a month or two of the final exam, they couldn't recall much of anything about some of the courses in which they had scored an A or highe…

Indeed. A lot of education in the western world is remarkably shallow. Blitz through a lot of "material" and busy work, then cram so you can pass the test the next day, then forget everything. It's a horrible way to "learn" anything.

I found the issue was just building on my education. You could teach me concept X until you were blue in the face, and I wouldn't remember a whole lot a few months later. But give me a half-decent education on concept X and then soon after move to something that builds on concept X, and I will retain a far greater understanding of concept X for far longer.

I think it is related to a similar effect I have noticed- when I teach something, I again retain that information much better.

Re: AP Credit Will No Longer Be Accepted At Dartmouth

#49

Post by Steko »

redwood wrote: post #26

It always felt like you were robbing yourself of really interesting college courses if you skipped them due to AP. I always saw AP as more of a gateway to college due to the prestige/GPA-boost they gave your application, rather than a real way of getting significant college credit.

More important than the GPA, prestige or credits is the ability to get ahead of the curve because of prerequisites.

In math many classes are closed to you without a year of multivariable and pretty much everything interesting is closed until you've taken first year calc. The same is going to be true to varying degrees for biology, chemistry, physics, computer science, psychology, econ, etc.

Re: AP Credit Will No Longer Be Accepted At Dartmouth

#50

Post by Steko »

thelucky41 wrote: post #46
InclinedPlane wrote: post #5

Maybe the AP system has degraded over the years. When I was in school it helped immensely and I was able to enter college as a mid-year sophomore and graduate early. And the level of material and rigor in AP courses seemed roughly comparable to 100 and 200 level college courses. The cynic in me sees this as a money making move, as it means that more incoming students will have to pay more to graduate. I'm really curi…

The main difference between AP tests and college courses is not the material that is covered (roughly comparable), but rather the format in which the knowledge of the material is evaluated. Like most standardized tests, the AP tests are incredibly game-able. As a student, I began taking random AP tests without taking the class and just studying a guide the week before the test. I passed every test (most with a 5), bu…

"just studying ... the week before the test. I passed every test"

I'm not sure this supports your conclusion. My guess is that many of us could do the same for the final exams of the classes those AP tests translate to credit for. In fact I'd guess most of us either did this or know of many people who did the same for even more advanced classes.

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