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Still More About The Death Of Aaron Swartz

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Re: Still More About The Death Of Aaron Swartz

#41

Post by dasil003 »

michaelochurch wrote: post #19
sociotech wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bingo. I've been trying not to say petty things out of respect for recently departed people and his family, with whom I sympathize for this terrible, terrible thing. But the radical loss of perspective here is just jarring, and the case is big enough now that it's hard to refrain from trying to put things into perspective. I am aware of the full history, having been a programmer with significant open-source and other…

I think the sign that the VC-istan technology world is terminally fucked is that we even have "celebrities" in the first place. Aaron Swartz may not have been a technological heavyweight. Nor am I. Nor are 99.x percent of the people reading this. That's not so bad. What is bad is that there's so much complete nonsense in our so-called "scene" that no one seems to give a rat's ass about actual technology anymore. It's…

Plenty of people still care about technology, it's just that "the scene" has become big enough for celebrities to emerge. This is part and parcel of the type of individualist capitalist society that enables a place like SV to emerge in the first place. The fact that there's a lot of noise drowning out the real technologists is nothing more than validation that technology is in fact relevant.

Re: Still More About The Death Of Aaron Swartz

#42

Post by MichaelSalib »

gruseom wrote: post #37
MichaelSalib wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taste cuts both ways though. I'm seriously concerned about how younger people in the community might respond to the hagiography. I'm afraid that some might come to believe that the CFAA isn't a real law so there's no problem with breaking it or that suicide is the best way for activists to enact real change.

That there's "no problem with breaking" the CFAA is the last conclusion anyone will draw from this tragedy.

I see a lot of people writing about how they change their MAC address all the time so what did Aaron do that was so wrong?

Granick writes in a well-read post about how Swartz didn't really break any laws -- everyone on MIT's network was legally entitled to download JSTOR as fast as they wanted to and apparently MIT had no right to keep anyone off its network.

There's a pervasive social norm that says 'if you can use tech to get something, then doing so is legal'; lots of people find the CFAA normatively absurd, in the same way that we might find a law against eating asparagus on sundays absurd. You see that in all the defenses that start from the premise that not only is Swartz innocent but that there's no conceivable crime he could have committed.

Re: Still More About The Death Of Aaron Swartz

#43

Post by 1337biz »

cbs wrote: post #23

I think this article speaks to why the case is getting so much attention. Lets presume for the sake of argument the trial didn't contribute to the suicide in the slightest. But it did cause us to look at the case, and you can't just un-see the fact that maybe you're not entirely comfortable with the way justice is being carried out in your name. We tend to trust in our legal system, one way or another. Even if that w…

May I add one point: Please don't understand political engagement as a way of signing and submitting petitions. At least try attending a meeting of one of the big parties, whichever one you can connect with at least on some level, and help those people understand the issue at hand. From my experience most are no idiots but just ignorant and open to a reasonable dialogue.

Re: Still More About The Death Of Aaron Swartz

#44

Post by aes256 »

cbs wrote: post #23

I think this article speaks to why the case is getting so much attention. Lets presume for the sake of argument the trial didn't contribute to the suicide in the slightest. But it did cause us to look at the case, and you can't just un-see the fact that maybe you're not entirely comfortable with the way justice is being carried out in your name. We tend to trust in our legal system, one way or another. Even if that w…

As much as my personal beliefs align with Aaron's and I am saddened by his passing, I think people are being more than a little disingenuous in their references to the charges he was facing.

I'd understand the indignation if we were talking about an actual sentence, but these were just charges. The maximum possible sentence for those charges might be dizzying, but realistically, Aaeron was never going to be handed the maximum.

Re: Still More About The Death Of Aaron Swartz

#45

Post by justin »

aes256 wrote: post #44
cbs wrote: post #23

I think this article speaks to why the case is getting so much attention. Lets presume for the sake of argument the trial didn't contribute to the suicide in the slightest. But it did cause us to look at the case, and you can't just un-see the fact that maybe you're not entirely comfortable with the way justice is being carried out in your name. We tend to trust in our legal system, one way or another. Even if that w…

As much as my personal beliefs align with Aaron's and I am saddened by his passing, I think people are being more than a little disingenuous in their references to the charges he was facing. I'd understand the indignation if we were talking about an actual sentence, but these were just charges. The maximum possible sentence for those charges might be dizzying, but realistically, Aaeron was never going to be handed th…

Giving the government the theoretical power to exact a tremendous punishment (30 years in jail + $1m fines) is terrible even if the full extent of that punishment is rarely or even never inflicted. Many others have pointed out that it can be used to get defendants to accept a plea bargain to reduce risk even when they don't believe themselves guilty, and increase the effect of systematic disenfranchisement of a class of minorities when used with selective enforcement.

Re: Still More About The Death Of Aaron Swartz

#46

Post by Cl4rity »

I really have no stance on this (in that I don't side with Aaron or the prosecutors in the case), because I don't have all the facts. Some of you may say that that is a stance, but I just don't see it that way. I am aware, however, that what I'm about to say may be considered controversial given the nature of how this case is being reported--and how it's being responded to.

Whenever we have shootings like the one in Newtown, we talk about gun control and mental health care. There is always that talk about mental health care. But when someone commits suicide, regardless of cause, those same mental health advocates are nowhere to be found. Why?

There are hundreds, maybe even thousands of people who have it worse than Aaron Swartz did, but they don't go killing themselves. Some people lose their spouses and children in house fires, along with all of their belongings. They spiral into depression, lose their jobs, go back to living with friends or family, see nothing but bleak prospects and they ultimately pull out of it. Others lose their fortunes and things they've spent their lives working for, a few of them do commit suicide, like the ones after the 2008 financial collapse, but some don't. There are people who commit crimes and know they face stiff prison sentences, like life sentences or death penalties, but they don't kill themselves.

I could go on and on about how much worse it is for people in third-world countries, for those who don't know where their food and clean water are going to come from day in and day out. I could go on about the people who are brutally bullied, day in and day out.

Many of these people, some in arguably worse condition than Aaron Swartz was in prior to his death, don't kill themselves. So when we're faced with a case like Swartz's, why are we so quick to find someone to blame?

Yes, prosecutors were overreaching and giving him hell, but they didn't kill him. He killed himself. Hell, there are people who are currently serving long or life sentences in prison who are innocent of the crimes brought against them, but they're fighting and hoping from within their cells. Many of them are not committing suicide.

All I'm trying to say is it takes a lot more than a prison sentence, 6 months or 50 years, to get most people to kill themselves. And yet hardly anyone is talking about mental health care.

Re: Still More About The Death Of Aaron Swartz

#47

Post by subsystem »

hullo wrote: post #2

I don't particularly think there's much to be gained by going against the hivemind on all of this, but I also don't "blame" the prosecutors for Aaron's death. Aaron killed himself. Suicide and depression are tricky things, and not one single person currently living knows what the full story is. If that's enough to get me labeled as "usually reasonable" as well, then so be it.

In any system there's going to be a certain amount of leeway, were you can go beyond what is normally allowed. The problems begin when people become arrogant and abuse the responsibility given to them because it makes it easier for themselves to reach a certain result. These acts themselves are of course awful, bordering on corruption, but we choose to trust people in certain positions to use their judgment and therefore give them the benefit of the doubt.

Once in a while something happens, like someone getting hurt or taking their own life. Then it's no longer about trust, but about accountability and therefore the burden of proof has been reversed. The person with the privileges now needs to convince everyone else that the trust put in them wasn't misplaced. That doesn't mean people involved were responsible for what happened, but it does mean they should be held accountable for whatever shortcut they took.

In this case we need to ask ourselves: Was the pressure and tactics used by the prosecution in line with the alleged crime committed and did the prosecution show enough judgement in regards to the defendants previous mental health issues or even just as a human being?

Re: Still More About The Death Of Aaron Swartz

#48

Post by larrys »

Cl4rity wrote: post #46

I really have no stance on this (in that I don't side with Aaron or the prosecutors in the case), because I don't have all the facts. Some of you may say that that is a stance, but I just don't see it that way. I am aware, however, that what I'm about to say may be considered controversial given the nature of how this case is being reported--and how it's being responded to. Whenever we have shootings like the one in…

Excellent points.

"So when we're faced with a case like Swartz's, why are we so quick to find someone to blame?"

Let me answer that for you by quoting Rahm Emanuel:

"You never let a serious crisis go to waste. And what I mean by that it's an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before."

Re: Still More About The Death Of Aaron Swartz

#49

Post by larrys »

hullo wrote: post #2

I don't particularly think there's much to be gained by going against the hivemind on all of this, but I also don't "blame" the prosecutors for Aaron's death. Aaron killed himself. Suicide and depression are tricky things, and not one single person currently living knows what the full story is. If that's enough to get me labeled as "usually reasonable" as well, then so be it.

"If that's enough to get me labeled as "usually reasonable" as well, then so be it."

It's amazing the number of people (myself included) that when talking about this issue have to package what they say in a way to prevent getting pilloried (or downvoted) for their opinions.

Re: Still More About The Death Of Aaron Swartz

#50

Post by Cl4rity »

larrys wrote: post #48
Cl4rity wrote: post #46

I really have no stance on this (in that I don't side with Aaron or the prosecutors in the case), because I don't have all the facts. Some of you may say that that is a stance, but I just don't see it that way. I am aware, however, that what I'm about to say may be considered controversial given the nature of how this case is being reported--and how it's being responded to. Whenever we have shootings like the one in…

Excellent points. "So when we're faced with a case like Swartz's, why are we so quick to find someone to blame?" Let me answer that for you by quoting Rahm Emanuel: "You never let a serious crisis go to waste. And what I mean by that it's an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before."

I've never heard that quote before, and as sad as it is, it's a pretty damn good one. Honestly, prior to his suicide, I didn't really know much about Aaron Swartz, and I certainly had no idea that the U.S. prosecuted this harshly for what seems like a mild/minor crime.
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