Live data from Hacker News

U.S. Attorney Carmen Ortiz Issues Statement on Aaron Swartz Case

blogs.wsj.com

251–260 of 300 posts

Re: U.S. Attorney Carmen Ortiz Issues Statement on Aaron Swartz Case

#251
post #176
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a foreigner (French) I'm surprised that Americans apparently don't get that mixing a career in politic with a career in justice is the open door to abuse, demagogy or conflicts of interests. This should not be allowed or even possible.

Note that the UK government is currently in the process of adopting such policies. If they're successful, look for this sort of arrangement to be proposed in other European countries as "reforms".

I didn't like the sound of that when I first heard about it. Now I am dead set against it. Politics and the justice system have no business being connected like this in any way.

The system is so horribly compromised in the US it's hard to see how it can be meaningfully fixed. What a mess.

Re: U.S. Attorney Carmen Ortiz Issues Statement on Aaron Swartz Case

#252
post #205

What I find really sad about all of this is that it took a suicide for all of this news and outrage to surface. It's understandable but it's depressing. I think some people (not saying Swartz) considering suicide think, I'll show them, or this will make them sorry. This sort of supports that. In Swartz's case the sad thing is he probably never expected this outpouring of support. To him it probably seemed as if the w…

Most people weren't on his side because the most harsh details of the case were not easily visible to those not directly involved with the case.

If that had been different I think a lot more people would have support Aaron earlier.

Re: U.S. Attorney Carmen Ortiz Issues Statement on Aaron Swartz Case

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes a big difference. Four million is apparently the majority of JSTOR's database. Keep in mind that JSTOR doesn't own those articles, it just arranges approved access to paying institutions on behalf of the various journals which do own the articles. If Aaron had distributed them he might have damaged around a thousand different institutions involved in an important segment of the knowledge and innovation indus…

"If Aaron had distributed them he might have damaged around a thousand different institutions involved in an important segment of the knowledge and innovation industry" I know there is his manifesto from a couple of years ago but we can't be sure what he was going to do with them.

The most interesting thing is that the manifesto really walks a fine line. For example, here is one of the most relevant parts:

"We need to take stuff that’s out of copyright and add it to the archive. We need to buy secret databases and put them on the Web. We need to download scientific journals and upload them to file sharing networks."

Now here's the funny thing: The first two arguably aren't illegal or infringing. If something is out of copyright then you can copy it. If you interpret buying a secret database as actually buying the distribution rights to it, neither is that. And if you read it in that context, you can imagine circumstances in which the same could be done to journals in specific circumstances, e.g. as a call for academics or their universities to retain their copyright so that they could do so with authorization, or with the subset of journals that charge for access but still allow liberal redistribution by those who have paid, etc. On the other hand, he's talking about civil disobedience, which implies lawbreaking. It's a conflicted piece.

So you have that, and then you have the fact that he was known to do work on text processing that may require a large corpus of articles for a database, which provides a rational alternative justification for downloading the articles other than to post them to file sharing networks -- or perhaps he intended to do that and also post that subset of the articles downloaded which could legally be posted, either because they're in the public domain or were appropriately licensed.

The point is we don't know, and the prosecution has the burden to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. So even if you think it's more likely than not that he would have posted them all to Pirate Bay, do you think so beyond a reasonable doubt? Because if I was on the jury, to me, the above doesn't feel like beyond a reasonable doubt.

Re: U.S. Attorney Carmen Ortiz Issues Statement on Aaron Swartz Case

#254
post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just happened in my small town. Mayor got caught falsifying documents in previous city job. Pled guilty, agreed to fine + resignation. Judge threw that out, added 15 days in jail. Mayor didn't resign till the DA filed suit to enforce the law. Much popcorn was consumed watching theatrics in town of 1k people.

Yes, but when have you seen it happen the other way? Judge throws out the plea bargain and gives lesser sentence . I'd be shocked and amazed. Now reading about that case would require some popcorn.

Haven't seen that. But this is the third in a string of entertaining mayors we've had.

Previous mayor got into a fight about hours worked with the council, and then after passing a resolution, the council had a lawyer look at it and decide that they couldn't do what they just did.

Previous to that, the mayor used the word 'poopyhead' on a local internet forum, which was disbanded later due to the excessive flaming over land use regulations.

Small towns are lovely, except for the talent pool for leading them.

Re: U.S. Attorney Carmen Ortiz Issues Statement on Aaron Swartz Case

#255
post #42

It's sad that he committed suicide, but that is not a rational response to 6 months in a low security jail. Conrad Black did 30+ months. Kevin Mitnick did several years. Even Martha Stewart managed 5 months. Also, with his profile and past history, his felony conviction would not seriously impede any career he wanted to undertake. Finally, the whole point of civil disobedience is to break a law, and get caught, punis…

>the whole point of civil disobedience is to break a law, and get caught, punished and make (to a certain extent) a martyr of yourself to draw attention to your cause.

This is assuming that his intent was actually civil disobedience -- what if he didn't think what he was doing was even illegal? His lawyers apparently didn't. And he wasn't even charged with copyright infringement, which is ostensibly the law he would have opposed.

Re: U.S. Attorney Carmen Ortiz Issues Statement on Aaron Swartz Case

#256
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is a Department of Justice press release threatening 35 years: http://www.justice.gov/usao/ma/news/2011/July/SwartzAaronPR.... The additional charges added later (after this press release) are the source of the 50 year estimate. 6 months was offered IF he agreed to plead guilty. If he went to trial, the prosecutors claim in the above press release that he faced 35 years; in private communications they have claim…

Apparently a material statement of fact that charges x, y, and z could result in a sentence of up to 35 years is a "threat"? People have shown a great ability to leap into conflating the two, a statement of intent versus a statement of fact.

This. The press release simply stated the maximum penalty for the charges. A "threat" would have been a statement by the prosecutor saying what they intended to press for. Example - if someone were to state "I have a gun that could shoot you, leading to injury or death" that is a statement of fact, whereas if they said "I have a gun and I intend/will shoot you, leading to your injury or death" then they are making a threat. In this case the statement of fact was "If convicted on these charges, SWARTZ faces up to 35 years in prison..." the use of "IF" is very important.

http://www.justice.gov/usao/ma/news/2011/July/SwartzAaronPR....

Legal jargon is very specific and it may seem overly analytic to draw such a fine line, but that is exactly how law works and such specific distinctions must be drawn in order to understand exactly what is being said.

Re: U.S. Attorney Carmen Ortiz Issues Statement on Aaron Swartz Case

#257
"I haven't bothered to mention the whole sad Aaron Swartz saga, because it's been covered elsewhere.

But having the involved US attorney then basically lie about it all in a very public statement is something that I find particularly offensive."

-- Linus Torvalds, https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/ggzfzKyr...

Re: U.S. Attorney Carmen Ortiz Issues Statement on Aaron Swartz Case

#258
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently a material statement of fact that charges x, y, and z could result in a sentence of up to 35 years is a "threat"? People have shown a great ability to leap into conflating the two, a statement of intent versus a statement of fact.

"We're not saying its going to happen to you, but these other three businesses have burned to the ground. If you give us 10%, we can make sure it doesn't happen to you." At no point in this sentence did I say "If you do not pay us 10% we will burn down your business." However prosecutions have successfully argued, and any reasonable person would agree, that the first sentence is a threat, is coercive, and is criminal…

You state: "You may post as many replies on this thread that "threat" doesn't mean what we think it means but the law, common sense, and understanding of English, proves you wrong." however...

From United States v. Kelner (1975) -

"... the threat on its face and in the circumstances in which it is made is so unequivocal, unconditional, immediate and specific as to the person threatened, as to convey a gravity of purpose and imminent prospect of execution..."

The "threat" made by the prosecutor in Swartz's case wouldn't meet the conditions of unequivocal, unconditional, or immediate thereby rendering it not a threat. A layman may feel that they were threatened or that someone else would feel threatened by the statement in the press release, but the law does not consider it one.

Re: U.S. Attorney Carmen Ortiz Issues Statement on Aaron Swartz Case

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what about the "to be followed by three years of supervised release, restitution, forfeiture and a fine of up to $1 million" ? and adding to that, his legal fees would have also cost millions? everything about their stance said "we are going to destroy you, grind you to bits", with all the "up to this" and "maximum that", it seems like only the very luckiest outcome would have left him with his life and that of his f…

The reason why those legal fees are so high is because you're not just hiring a lawyer to defend against a federal suit, the lawyer is just the point man. There is a whole army of support behind that point man working hard to supply him/her with relevant data. A missed detail can cost you the case. The other side in cases like this has a (from the point of view of a single defendant) unlimited budget to make somethin…

>The reason why those legal fees are so high is

...because the penalties are so high. That's the actual reason. Because when the maximum penalty after a trial is a 30 day misdemeanor, you hire a lawyer and pay them two months of your salary and you make your case, because that's about the point past where spending more money to defend the case is no longer worth it against the possibility of losing.

But when the maximum penalty is a 30 year felony, or even a 10 year felony, you spend every dime you have, because the penalties are that high. And then, because criminals are so consistently charged with enormous penalties like that, which makes them consistently go all out on their defenses, the prosecutors go to Congress and say "we don't have enough resources to fight these people who have these high priced defense attorneys" and they get multimillion dollar budgets for individual cases.

Which brings on the arms race. So now you're not just spending every dime you have, you're spending every dime your parents have, every dime your friends have to prove that you didn't do it, every cent you can borrow from a bank or a loan shark, because the alternative is even worse. And the more defendants spend, the more prosecutors get to outspend them, because "we can't have criminals with more resources than prosecutors."

Scale back the stakes and you scale back the resources needed to fight over them.

Re: U.S. Attorney Carmen Ortiz Issues Statement on Aaron Swartz Case

#260
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aaron was founder of Demand Progress, organization that actually fought laws like PIPA/SOPA, and many other things, and the laws didn't pass. This is a list of campaigns by Demand Progress: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demand_Progress#Campaigns

If you think US Attys prosecute people because they organize peacefully against copyright laws, you're living in a different world from the real one.

USA requested the extradition of a young student[1] from UK over copyright laws, for sharing links. UK Home Secretary approved the order and the outrage ran the world. Without the attention the story got that young student would be in an American jail today.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_O%27Dwyer

Post reply on HN