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U.S. Attorney Carmen Ortiz Issues Statement on Aaron Swartz Case

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Re: U.S. Attorney Carmen Ortiz Issues Statement on Aaron Swartz Case

#71
"Under my coat is a weary heart, but a kind one-one that could do nobody harm." -notorious murderer two gun Crowley

Unless you can improve on the silence, don't open your mouth...

Before this statement I had hopes Ortiz had regrets...Now I know she doesn't...where did I leave my pitchfork?

Re: U.S. Attorney Carmen Ortiz Issues Statement on Aaron Swartz Case

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One, two, a million, four million, what difference does it actually make? The crime was violating the terms, it isn't relevant where the EOF bit was transmitted. If you made the same files half as big he would have "stolen" twice as many files, or twice as big then he would have done half the crime by your logic. He never distributed anything. No clue where you got that from? Additionally "threatening a business mode…

It makes a big difference. Four million is apparently the majority of JSTOR's database. Keep in mind that JSTOR doesn't own those articles, it just arranges approved access to paying institutions on behalf of the various journals which do own the articles. If Aaron had distributed them he might have damaged around a thousand different institutions involved in an important segment of the knowledge and innovation indus…

"If Aaron had distributed them he might have damaged around a thousand different institutions involved in an important segment of the knowledge and innovation industry"

I know there is his manifesto from a couple of years ago but we can't be sure what he was going to do with them.

Re: U.S. Attorney Carmen Ortiz Issues Statement on Aaron Swartz Case

#73
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we please not Godwin this?

He's not Godwinning this at all. Claiming superior orders is exactly what the Nuremberg defense was all about, it is simply an accurate association. Just because something happened in relation to WWII does not automatically mean that any reference to it invokes Godwin's law, that's for inappropriate comparisons. This one is entirely appropriate as far as I can see.

It is not appropriate because Ortiz is not accused of war crimes.

Re: U.S. Attorney Carmen Ortiz Issues Statement on Aaron Swartz Case

#74
Isn't this just the way these things are done in the US? America has an adversarial system of justice. It also has a plea bargaining system. Don't those two together naturally lead to situations where each side will threaten their worst in an effort to gain the best bargain they can from the other?

Re: U.S. Attorney Carmen Ortiz Issues Statement on Aaron Swartz Case

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is obvious from this press release from the formulation "faces up to 35 years in prison", that they are simply quoting the maximum penality for the charges. The prosecutors press release says that they didn't intend to push for maximum penality. These two statement are perfectly compatible with each other.

what about the "to be followed by three years of supervised release, restitution, forfeiture and a fine of up to $1 million" ? and adding to that, his legal fees would have also cost millions? everything about their stance said "we are going to destroy you, grind you to bits", with all the "up to this" and "maximum that", it seems like only the very luckiest outcome would have left him with his life and that of his f…

The reason why those legal fees are so high is because you're not just hiring a lawyer to defend against a federal suit, the lawyer is just the point man. There is a whole army of support behind that point man working hard to supply him/her with relevant data. A missed detail can cost you the case. The other side in cases like this has a (from the point of view of a single defendant) unlimited budget to make something stick, so just like any other arms race your own resources (money, translated into legal time) will have to be brought up to match this or you will almost certainly lose, even if you are innocent.

There is something extremely wrong here but that is how it works at the moment.

Re: U.S. Attorney Carmen Ortiz Issues Statement on Aaron Swartz Case

#76
post #54
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"...did not warrant the severe punishments authorized by Congress and called for by the Sentencing Guidelines in appropriate cases." Scapegoating Congress now, she is truly shameless in invoking the Nuremberg Defense.

Can we please not Godwin this?

You seem to be operating under a popular misunderstanding of what Godwin said. Godwin said, merely, that if the discussion goes on long enough, eventually the nazi era will be mentioned.

He never said it was always inappropriate to mention it, nor that those who mention it are always wrong, etc.

The popularity of "Godwin's Law" (especially this incorrect interpretation) has lead to a lot of people denying that anything in the US (or any online discussion) could be accurately compared to anything that happened in Germany.

Which is silly, but just another case of "when america does it, it's different."

Re: U.S. Attorney Carmen Ortiz Issues Statement on Aaron Swartz Case

#77
post #42

It's sad that he committed suicide, but that is not a rational response to 6 months in a low security jail. Conrad Black did 30+ months. Kevin Mitnick did several years. Even Martha Stewart managed 5 months. Also, with his profile and past history, his felony conviction would not seriously impede any career he wanted to undertake. Finally, the whole point of civil disobedience is to break a law, and get caught, punis…

Except defending himself would have cost on the order of a million dollars (Per Lessig) - does he go to his family for that? Even if he turns out to be found completely innocent, him, his family, and those who he can turn to would have been wiped out financially. That part of the story doesn't get enough attention.

Not sure - how do non-famous defendants without millionaire friends and that haven't sold a start-up fund their cases? He could try that.

Re: U.S. Attorney Carmen Ortiz Issues Statement on Aaron Swartz Case

#78
I agree that the "Statement" is misleading. If Ortiz really believed that a Guidelines sentence was inappropriate they could have offered a capped sentence of six months or stipulated to a lower financial valuation of the stolen documents to bring down the Guideline. Neither was done. A prosecutor's recommendation is useful, but it is not binding on the Court. They did not agree to dismiss the other counts of the indictment, and while this would not affect the Guidelines, the sentencing judge could decide to impose sentences consecutively. Swartz would have been without computer access during a two to three year term of supervised release as well. If Ortiz really believed what she wrote in her Statement her office would have limited Swartz' criminal exposure to six months. US Attorneys' offices do this all the time. Hers did not. Her statement is misleading.

The cover-up is always worse than the crime and this Statement only makes me wonder what else is out there. She should resign.

Re: U.S. Attorney Carmen Ortiz Issues Statement on Aaron Swartz Case

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes a big difference. Four million is apparently the majority of JSTOR's database. Keep in mind that JSTOR doesn't own those articles, it just arranges approved access to paying institutions on behalf of the various journals which do own the articles. If Aaron had distributed them he might have damaged around a thousand different institutions involved in an important segment of the knowledge and innovation indus…

"If Aaron had distributed them he might have damaged around a thousand different institutions involved in an important segment of the knowledge and innovation industry" I know there is his manifesto from a couple of years ago but we can't be sure what he was going to do with them.

Do you have a link to that?

Re: U.S. Attorney Carmen Ortiz Issues Statement on Aaron Swartz Case

#80
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not Godwinning this at all. Claiming superior orders is exactly what the Nuremberg defense was all about, it is simply an accurate association. Just because something happened in relation to WWII does not automatically mean that any reference to it invokes Godwin's law, that's for inappropriate comparisons. This one is entirely appropriate as far as I can see.

It is not appropriate because Ortiz is not accused of war crimes.

It is actually, because unlikely though the name may seem to you the Nuremberg defense is actually a lot older than WorldWar II and was historically invoked for lots of other things besides war crimes. The fact that during the Nuremberg trials it was used so frequently that it got named because of them does not detract from this.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders

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