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The Criminal Charges Against Aaron Swartz – Part 2: Prosecutorial Discretion

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Re: The Criminal Charges Against Aaron Swartz – Part 2: Prosecutorial Discretion

#41
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The value in Ortiz "paying" is to show other prosecutors what can happen when they get over zealous what i got from the article is that Ortiz was not overzealous. she was doing what most prosecutors do all the time. why should we single her out? if we wanted to fire all prosecutors that used her tactics, we'd probably have to fire the majority of federal prosecutors.

Without involving Ortiz, what could we do that would get as much press as this has gotten? If the media has no interest, your cause is going nowhere, and the media won't be interested without names and faces to talk about. Besides, it is completely logical to believe she was overzealous and every other prosecutor is doing it. Just because everybody else is speeding, too, doesn't mean I won't get the ticket. Ortiz hap…

You've managed, in two posts, to state almost precisely my own thoughts on this matter. It is indeed something of a shame to hold Ortiz personally liable for the system in which she learned her craft; and yet it seems that there is no better way to signal a strong, popular desire for that system to change than to end her (and Steve Hymann's) career. Given that their actions lead to the death of Aaron Swartz, personally, I wouldn't feel too bad for them. No-one is calling for disbarment, after all, so they have a cushy private practice to look forward to.

Re: The Criminal Charges Against Aaron Swartz – Part 2: Prosecutorial Discretion

#42
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the record, I do not consider myself anti-democratic. I consider myself pro-democratic. However I do not see that we have a democratic process. As a concrete example, consider the last election. More than 50% of voters voted for Democrats in Congress (even when you discard seats where there was only one party on the ballot, still over 50% voted that way), and a large majority in polls want Congress to become less…

This won't change until we get rid of first past the post and gerrymandering. And with the way things are going, I don't think there is a good chance of that happening.

And I think that was his point about using "innovation" to bypass a system that is almost immutable.

Re: The Criminal Charges Against Aaron Swartz – Part 2: Prosecutorial Discretion

#43
post #9

Swartz had something else in mind it seems; just taking the law into his own hands I think this is really one of the core reasons so many hackers disagree with this lawyer mindset. A hacker or an entrepreneur is someone who breaks rules to create something. Innovation and consensus are antonyms, not synonyms. Innovation does not happen by committee. If you wait for a "democratic process" that is bought and rigged by…

"As for the fetishization of 'democracy' in Kerr's post, sometimes elections produce good outcomes. But often the wisdom of crowds isn't so wise" Well, yes, but that's why we do the whole voting thing again after a period of time, rather than just once. Democracy isn't a means to ensure bad decisions won't get made, it's a means to ensure they can be un-made. "Many times, perhaps most times, the crowd votes after som…

That's why the issue is contentious. Was the government of South Africa justified in taking special deterrence measures to deter Nelson Mandela from pursuing his anti-democratic efforts to unlawfully oppose the government? This is absolutely crazy talk. The fetishization of democracy cannot be allowed to undermine principled opposition to bugs found in its operation. I agree with Kerr that civil disobedience merits punishment -- that's kind of the point. But he's completely wrong about prosecutorial discretion. It's completely correct that the prosecutorial indiscretion of treating civil disobedience as if it were traitorous to democracy is a political act, and should be answered by political means.

An "Al Capone" approach would be more like some of the actions of Anonymous -- performing security penetrations to collect, say, secret government or corporate data and then publishing it. Accessing publicly-funded research or public-domain documents and making them available is much more Rosa Parks.

Re: The Criminal Charges Against Aaron Swartz – Part 2: Prosecutorial Discretion

#44
>When someone engages in civil disobedience and intentionally violates a criminal law to achieve such an anti-democratic policy goal through unlawful means — and when there are indications in both words and deeds that he will continue to do so

I thought Swartz signed a deal with JSTOR that said that he was to never again going to download more articles. What indications existed then that he was going to continue with the specific crime he was charged with? The Manifesto, while provocative, is generic in form and should not override a more specific document stating a clear purpose of not continue with the violation of this law in this case.

Re: The Criminal Charges Against Aaron Swartz – Part 2: Prosecutorial Discretion

#45
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot (most?) people understand that. Aaron is the rallying cry to spark action. Ortiz is an initial heading to point that action. And while I hope Ortiz does pay (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5071218 for hope it might be), I hope even more that it doesn't stop there. The value in Ortiz "paying" is to show other prosecutors what can happen when they get over zealous. There is only value in that if…

> The value in Ortiz "paying" is to show other prosecutors what can happen when they get over zealous what i got from the article is that Ortiz was not overzealous. she was doing what most prosecutors do all the time. why should we single her out? if we wanted to fire all prosecutors that used her tactics, we'd probably have to fire the majority of federal prosecutors.

Everyone does it because there are no consequences for doing so.

If there are consequences, then suddenly everyone won't do it any more.

Re: The Criminal Charges Against Aaron Swartz – Part 2: Prosecutorial Discretion

#46

I think it’s important to realize that what happened in the Swartz case happens it lots and lots of federal criminal cases. Yes, the prosecutors tried to force a plea deal by scaring the defendant with arguments that he would be locked away for a long time if he was convicted at trial. Yes, the prosecutors filed a superseding indictment designed to scare Swartz evem more in to pleading guilty (it actually had no effe…

Yeah, definitely agree there. Just because "everyone does it" doesn't make it an excuse. Living in a country where bribing is pretty common, that's what you here all the time about it, too - that everyone does it.

Re: The Criminal Charges Against Aaron Swartz – Part 2: Prosecutorial Discretion

#47
post #12
post #9

Swartz had something else in mind it seems; just taking the law into his own hands I think this is really one of the core reasons so many hackers disagree with this lawyer mindset. A hacker or an entrepreneur is someone who breaks rules to create something. Innovation and consensus are antonyms, not synonyms. Innovation does not happen by committee. If you wait for a "democratic process" that is bought and rigged by…

I think there is a strong grain of truth to what you say. My politics are fairly lawyerly,[1] and I find the anti-democratic sentiment on here disquieting, especially the constant attempts to discredit the democratic process at every turn by unsubstantiated hand waving about how the system is "bought." [1] I think the chicken came before the egg. The profession attracts people who have a strong sense of order and con…

Err, I think you have a very relevant point, but I think it's not fair to characterize this as either "order-loving" or "anti democracy".

I'll paraphrase Churchill: I think that democracy is horrible, but it's simply the best means we have of protecting individual rights.

Furthermore, democracy doesn't mean "majoritarianism", it means "rule of people". Yet even a simple representative democracy is exceedingly difficult to implement (obvious example is how would one draw district boundaries to ensure fair representation of all groups -- Gerrymandering is a huge problem) as to adequately represent "the will of the people". So a lot of people are contending this specific point.

I think where I draw the line is in ends vs. means: I strongly care about protecting basic individual rights. Primitive ancestral tribalism means absolute collectivism and zero individual rights (the right to swing one's fist was not limited by where another's nose began), so we've continuously evolved better and better systems to do so including Anglo-American Common Law (which today still provides some of the strongest guarantees of liberty anywhere on Earth).

On the other hand, just looking at the judicial history, I see a lot of clever bending of the rules and hacks that got us there: using 14th amendment to apply first amendment to defend highly unpopular speech was both "anti-democratic" and contrary to the letter of the law (the first amendment clearly said "congress shall pass no law"). Likewise, Roe v. Wade was a great judicial hack (use of 9th and 14th amendment to defend another activity most everyone opposed) that significantly expanded women's reproductive freedom.

These kind of "hacks" even made the idea of law entertaining to me (when fresh out of undergrad, I was being prepared for deposition in some IP litigation I got dragged to as a result of an internship I had, the counsel seriously urged me to consider law school instead of MS in CSE). However, I knew that realistically my choices would be either near-starvation or big law (absolutely the wrong place for someone like me, who could never adhere to a strict schedule or a dress code).

However, I don't see that "order loving" and "order breaking" are mutually exclusive: a software engineer is free to work at a firm that requires everyone to be in the office at 9:30 (irrespective of how late they stay until) and many choose to do so (practically all engineer working for financial firms). I don't see an issue with companies choosing this culture, with some reasonable exceptions (e.g., I'm not a laissez-faire absolutist, so I would consider it grossly unjust to fire an engineer for coming at 9:45 because their daughter had a doctor's appointment that morning).

While I would abhor forced-collectivism as a political system, I've enjoyed working at smaller "collectivist" companies, i.e., where everyone is focused on the same goal (which benefits everyone) rather than on advancing themselves.

So where does aaron enter into this? I think to me the part I found morally repugnant that the law that was meant to defend JSTOR (who have dropped the charges and whose rights were not severely transgressed) was aimed disproportionally against Aaron. In other words the state was acting to some concrete end that went far beyond what was reasonable to protect individual rights[1].

If the state wanted Aaron to never do this again, clearly stating to Aaron that if this happens again he will go to jail (something that seemed to absolutely deter him) and get a felony on his record (something that, again, would clearly deter him -- in that it would make his goals of social activism much more difficult in terms of difficulty of finding employment, vote or run for office, etc...).

Everything else seems superflous, unneeded and disproportionate (if JSTOR pursued the case they would have had a right to some kind of settlement, but not, e.g., forcing Aaron to pay $2 bn or sending him to jail for a decade).

What I think energized me even more personally is that his situation is far from unique -- you were also one of the first to point to this out too. However, rather than forgetting about Aaron, the proper response is to further seize on the momentum: Aaron was certainly influential and this influence could be used to change the laws governing prosecutorial conduct. I think (but correct me if I am wrong), you would also agree with me here.

Where we disagree (as far as I understand your comments) is just because 51% of people find personal drug use repugnant (or believe cooky theories about it), than they have a free hand at imposing drug laws. My own take being that "unenumerated" individual liberties (liberty being defined negatively and circularly as something that doesn't infringe on the liberty of othes) should be restricted if and only if doing so is crucial to protecting the rights of others (e.g., to use an artificial example, if a pain killer happens to make 30% of its users instantly and extremely violent it can be restricted, as long as it is still available under supervised conditions to who can't for one reason or another use another pain killer). More fundamental liberties (those crucial to continuation of liberty itself -- free speech, protection against torture, protection against unreasonable search and seizure) should have an even stricter standard (something similar to the "clear and present danger" standard for free speech in the US today). I think it's also close to the fundamental framework most (but not all) HN-ers subscribe to (libertarians and liberals alike), but there is wide disagreement on specifics of how it applies in each individual case (it's clear that an outright ban on marijuana has a zero or negative effect as far protection of fundamental liberties of others goes, but it's a bit more difficult for other drugs). Some might also argue that there is an even more fundamental right to use an entheogen, etc...

The libertarian positions tend to be more categorical than the liberal ones (e.g., property is the more right, so taxation is always unjust, even if it's the only way to provide basic healthcare or legal protection for individuals).

I am hopefully not caricaturing you, but your argument seems to be that liberties and rights are crucial, but they are granted and limited based on "greater common good" analysis as opposed to more categorical statements. I think it's perfectly valid and (often) seems to lead to similar conclusions as the system I use, but the thought process is very different in that a deeper-level happiness of majority (which is usually greatly bolstered by liberty, but not always so), as opposed to liberty itself is your overriding concern ("if a small minority really wants to do X which poses no harm to the majority, but the majority is deeply upset that X is allowed, then it's fine to bring the legal system down full-force on the minority that chooses to do X").

In the end I think these two systems actually converge more often that not: drug war does not serve the common good, for example. Yet, it's the disagreements that can be particularly vehement (such as issue of laws that infringe on individual rights in one way or another, but yet have a clear societal benefit despite not immediately protecting individual rights -- e.g., seatbelt laws, laws regulating food portions, drugs beyond marijuana, certain police practices, etc...)

[1] Reasonable people can disagree whether academic publishers have a right to hold papers behind a paywall. I think that's debatable, with my own views being closer to Aaron's. Another example where this is simply hard and reasonable people coming from the same "first principles" can disagree.

Re: The Criminal Charges Against Aaron Swartz – Part 2: Prosecutorial Discretion

#48
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What punishment was the minimum necessary to deter Swartz from continuing to try to use unlawful means to achieve his reform goals?" Let's say no punishment would deter Swartz. Would that justify a sentence of life in prison?

Given that he, like many of us, lived his entire life on the internet, simply taking away all computer and internet access for 12 months should be enough to deter him. During those 12 months, if he violates that probationary periods he could be automatically hit with 6 months of jail time. For many of us, the possibility of being deprived the tool that gives most of us the power we have should be enough to deter.

You're forgetting supervised release. This is mandatory even after a short custodial sentence and could be for a period of up to three years. During this time he could not have computer access; this is a standard condition. It was a violation of this supervised release condition that sent the Egyptian national who made a scandalous film about Islam back to prison.

Re: The Criminal Charges Against Aaron Swartz – Part 2: Prosecutorial Discretion

#49
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Ortiz or Heymann are fired or resign under pressure, the only signal that really sends to other prosecutors is that mob justice is effective for those with a mob at their backs. And against the idea of being over zealous, you have the mentality cultivated in the legal field that one cannot be "over" zealous in playing one's role within an adversarial system. If you want to see change, not just for people like Swar…

>If Ortiz or Heymann are fired or resign under pressure, the only signal that really sends to other prosecutors is that mob justice is effective for those with a mob at their backs. It is this kind of argument that seeks to undermine the call to action mentioned in the (rather brilliant) grandpost. Unfortunately, it is often the case that if any action at all is to take place, it must be drastic. Subtle actions tend…

I don't care if Ortiz suffers an unjust end to her career. She'll still be alive. And I'm not suggesting the problem is that the action is too drastic. It's that the action sends the wrong message. The most likely outcome of Ortiz getting fired is that prosecutors are more cautious about bullying the well-connected; they'll judge each defendant on the likelihood of their martyrdom and act accordingly. It won't make defending oneself against federal charges any more cheap or accessible; it won't make a prosecutor approach you in a measured way. And the less powerful defendants are still going to get screwed--which is to say, those who most need federal prosecutors to treat them reasonably and decently. Firing Ortiz (or, more accurately, Heymann) will just make others more cautious when dealing with the rich and the famous.

Prosecutors bully defendants into taking bad plea deals because they're judged on their conviction rate. People act according to their incentives, and federal prosecutors are incentivized to get quick, cheap convictions the way they do it now. You want change? Change the incentives. Crucifying one out of a hundred doesn't work.

Re: The Criminal Charges Against Aaron Swartz – Part 2: Prosecutorial Discretion

#50
post #20
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am happy we can isolate a point of upstream difference here, as many times people argue about downstream things unproductively. Regarding "cowboy engineering", granted. I would argue that respect for engineering practices/stability comes after that blistering innovation that builds the system in the first place. And in some cases at least, many lawyers seem to endorse anti-democratic measures (e.g. having federal p…

> I would argue that respect for engineering practices/stability comes after that blistering innovation that builds the system in the first place. I quite disagree. The Internet, for example, wasn't the brainchild of rule breakers. It was a defense project, built by people quite thoroughly entrenched in the establishment. The telephone network, that made the whole country smaller, was built by the AT&T monopoly in a…

I think the political points were stronger: the revolutionary war was clearly unlawful. The constitutional convention was, well, perhaps not quite unlawful, but a sort of de facto coup-de-etat that a lot of powerful people thought was necessary. Civil rights demonstrations? Unlawful. Pretty much every political innovation, by definition, is unlawful at the time of conception. It's hard to see how it could be otherwise.

That's why democracies, if they are true to their ideological roots, need to be very cautious and tolerant of peaceful forms of civil disobedience. That's why it's absolutely justifiable to object to prosecutorial overreach in such cases. Status quo pressures, if deployed with the full might of the law, are the ones that are anti-democratic, and that's what seems to have happened here, for political (or, worse, narcissistic) reasons.

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