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The Criminal Charges Against Aaron Swartz – Part 2: Prosecutorial Discretion

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Re: The Criminal Charges Against Aaron Swartz – Part 2: Prosecutorial Discretion

#31
post #9

Swartz had something else in mind it seems; just taking the law into his own hands I think this is really one of the core reasons so many hackers disagree with this lawyer mindset. A hacker or an entrepreneur is someone who breaks rules to create something. Innovation and consensus are antonyms, not synonyms. Innovation does not happen by committee. If you wait for a "democratic process" that is bought and rigged by…

In some cases just fixing things may look like rule-breaking.

Imagine, you need to download a file from a server, but your wireless connection keeps dropping. You don't really know why. Maybe some problem on the network, or improperly configured web server. You don't know. What would you do?

Would you go, and start soliciting network administrators, or contact web server administrators? Probably no, right? You'll just try to fix things. Solve the problem, so it would work. You will try downloading from another network or another IP address. Tweak your download settings, and so on.

I think that's what Swartz was doing. Not breaking in, but just trying to make download script work. He didn't know that network administrators were trying to stop him. And he though that network problems that he was facing were just that - random network problems. Unreliable wireless with some bugs in the traffic management system.

Re: The Criminal Charges Against Aaron Swartz – Part 2: Prosecutorial Discretion

#32
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot (most?) people understand that. Aaron is the rallying cry to spark action. Ortiz is an initial heading to point that action. And while I hope Ortiz does pay (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5071218 for hope it might be), I hope even more that it doesn't stop there. The value in Ortiz "paying" is to show other prosecutors what can happen when they get over zealous. There is only value in that if…

> The value in Ortiz "paying" is to show other prosecutors what can happen when they get over zealous what i got from the article is that Ortiz was not overzealous. she was doing what most prosecutors do all the time. why should we single her out? if we wanted to fire all prosecutors that used her tactics, we'd probably have to fire the majority of federal prosecutors.

This is the "everybody does it" defense. It won't work for criminal defendants and it won't work for Ortiz.

Re: The Criminal Charges Against Aaron Swartz – Part 2: Prosecutorial Discretion

#33
Professor Kerr says we should forgive the prosecutors because “they all do it.” This is hardly appropriate and a slur on the many professional federal and state prosecutors who do not engage in these kind of tactics.

The fact of the matter is that in the United States a trial over a supermarket slip and fall is more fair than a federal criminal trial. Federal trials are trials by ambush. A defense lawyer has no opportunity to depose the witnesses against his client and usually only learns of their identities after the jury is empanelled. There is no way to determine if the witness has lied in the past or has reason to tailor his testimony to the prosecution’s case. The war on defense attorneys in the 1980’s was successful. Now almost all federal defense attorneys are underfunded public defenders or panel attorneys. The prosecutor has the resources not only of his own office, but of investigative agencies as well. Panel attorneys have no one and not only that, often have to finance the defense out of their own personal funds.

It is a pleasure to try a case against a federal prosecutor who is fair and does not game the system. Based on the comments from Swartz’ defense attorneys, that was not the situation in Ortiz’ office.

Re: The Criminal Charges Against Aaron Swartz – Part 2: Prosecutorial Discretion

#34
It doesn't say whether they are seeking 35 years. But this is from their website:

If convicted on these charges, SWARTZ faces up to 35 years in prison, to be followed by three years of supervised release, restitution, forfeiture and a fine of up to $1 million.

http://www.justice.gov/usao/ma/news/2011/July/SwartzAaronPR....

Re: The Criminal Charges Against Aaron Swartz – Part 2: Prosecutorial Discretion

#35
post #20
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am happy we can isolate a point of upstream difference here, as many times people argue about downstream things unproductively. Regarding "cowboy engineering", granted. I would argue that respect for engineering practices/stability comes after that blistering innovation that builds the system in the first place. And in some cases at least, many lawyers seem to endorse anti-democratic measures (e.g. having federal p…

> I would argue that respect for engineering practices/stability comes after that blistering innovation that builds the system in the first place. I quite disagree. The Internet, for example, wasn't the brainchild of rule breakers. It was a defense project, built by people quite thoroughly entrenched in the establishment. The telephone network, that made the whole country smaller, was built by the AT&T monopoly in a…

I emphatically disagree.

If you look within those pyramids you'll find that most of the time the innovations that made the larger pyramid succeed were the result of small, focused teams. For instance consider the famous aircrafts designs for the U-2, the SR-71 Blackbird, the F-117 Nighthawk, and the F-22 Raptor. Large pyramids, right? Wrong. All were the result of small teams at Lockheed under Kelly Johnson. (Who had a famous list of rules for successful projects, the third of which was, The number of people having any connection with the project must be restricted in an almost vicious manner.)

Was this unusual? No! You brought up putting men on the moon and Space X. Both were utterly dependent upon the efforts of a small community of people studying liquid rocket fuels in the 40s-60s. What kind of people were those? According to http://library.sciencemadness.org/library/books/ignition.pdf (that copy didn't load for me right now, but http://web.archive.org/web/20121013085952/http://library.sci... did) there were at most 50 men scattered across multiple companies who understood the field, all of whom were "howling individualists".

The same is true in computer science. Major projects with huge impact created by a handful of people. Examples include Lisp, Smalltalk, C, Unix, patch, emacs... Companies which, when you tear back the curtain, truly were dependent upon very small numbers of people. Ask anyone who follows tech if Apple would have been Apple without Steve Jobs. Ask anyone who has worked at Google whether Google could have become Google without Jeff Dean.

Large groups working together on a known goal are essential to our society. We could not have the world we have today without them. But find me an example of great engineering that requires those pyramids, and when you tear back the curtain you'll find in technology after technology, in component after component, that critical pieces were absolutely dependent upon small groups of people. And those people, far more often than anyone in charge would like to admit, were rule breakers.

Those rule breakers who were the ones who got things done are, for technologists both then and now, heros. You may wish that the world of technology was better behaved. But you cannot understand or appreciate it without accepting the fact that it really is that messy.

Re: The Criminal Charges Against Aaron Swartz – Part 2: Prosecutorial Discretion

#36
Orin is a good prosecutor (though retired). But let me drop two fine pieces of evidence to refute his statement that Aaron was going to put all of JSTOR into the public domain based on a manifesto.

1) Aaron's previous escapade was making PACER file available through huge downloads. Those files were all non-copyrightable and have become the basis of awesome open-source systems including RECAP and Justia.

2) Aaron had also downloaded some 400,000 Westlaw legal articles and then analyzed them to figure out which were sponsored. The resulting study was published in the Stanford Law Review in 2008. http://www.stanfordlawreview.org/sites/default/files/article...

A very large percentage of the files Aaron downloaded were out of copyright. Other than a manifesto, what proof did the prosecutors put forward that Aaron was going to publish in-copyright material?

Furthermore, without any evidence, Kerr says Aaron broke into the networking closet. It had no lock and no sign saying no entry.

But Kerr's clearly in prosecutorial mode. I much preferred his mindset when he was fighting the feds abuse of the CFAA in the Lori Drew case.

Re: The Criminal Charges Against Aaron Swartz – Part 2: Prosecutorial Discretion

#37
post #13

I think it will take me a day or two to properly digest this article. That is a good thing. Here are a few gut responses in semi-random order. 1. I absolutely agree that the whole process of plea bargains, threats, etc is unethical, immoral, etc. And we should object to it in all cases, not just when it happens to someone like Aaron Swartz. 2. I absolutely disagree that Aaron's actions would seriously threaten the re…

[deleted]

Re: The Criminal Charges Against Aaron Swartz – Part 2: Prosecutorial Discretion

#38
I think it’s important to realize that what happened in the Swartz case happens it lots and lots of federal criminal cases. Yes, the prosecutors tried to force a plea deal by scaring the defendant with arguments that he would be locked away for a long time if he was convicted at trial. Yes, the prosecutors filed a superseding indictment designed to scare Swartz evem more in to pleading guilty (it actually had no effect on the likely sentence, but it’s a powerful scare tactic). Yes, the prosecutors insisted on jail time and a felony conviction as part of a plea. But federal prosecutors use those tactics all the time.

That doesn't make it right.

Re: The Criminal Charges Against Aaron Swartz – Part 2: Prosecutorial Discretion

#39
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot (most?) people understand that. Aaron is the rallying cry to spark action. Ortiz is an initial heading to point that action. And while I hope Ortiz does pay (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5071218 for hope it might be), I hope even more that it doesn't stop there. The value in Ortiz "paying" is to show other prosecutors what can happen when they get over zealous. There is only value in that if…

If Ortiz or Heymann are fired or resign under pressure, the only signal that really sends to other prosecutors is that mob justice is effective for those with a mob at their backs. And against the idea of being over zealous, you have the mentality cultivated in the legal field that one cannot be "over" zealous in playing one's role within an adversarial system. If you want to see change, not just for people like Swar…

>If Ortiz or Heymann are fired or resign under pressure, the only signal that really sends to other prosecutors is that mob justice is effective for those with a mob at their backs.

It is this kind of argument that seeks to undermine the call to action mentioned in the (rather brilliant) grandpost. Unfortunately, it is often the case that if any action at all is to take place, it must be drastic. Subtle actions tend to fall apart.

Perhaps Ortiz's career will be ruined by this. Let us say that's unfair. But what if that outcome leads directly to a change in the entire system? What if, because she lost her job, prosecutors no longer bully defendants into taking bad plea deals by throwing the book at them because we made Ortiz into an example? Would that be worth it?

Re: The Criminal Charges Against Aaron Swartz – Part 2: Prosecutorial Discretion

#40
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot (most?) people understand that. Aaron is the rallying cry to spark action. Ortiz is an initial heading to point that action. And while I hope Ortiz does pay (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5071218 for hope it might be), I hope even more that it doesn't stop there. The value in Ortiz "paying" is to show other prosecutors what can happen when they get over zealous. There is only value in that if…

If Ortiz or Heymann are fired or resign under pressure, the only signal that really sends to other prosecutors is that mob justice is effective for those with a mob at their backs. And against the idea of being over zealous, you have the mentality cultivated in the legal field that one cannot be "over" zealous in playing one's role within an adversarial system. If you want to see change, not just for people like Swar…

Well, democratic governments are inherently mob driven. So we could think of effectiveness of the referred mob justice in terms of a legit and faster method of geting the government (or it's agencies) to take action than waiting for the next, different, government to get elected.
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