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The Criminal Charges Against Aaron Swartz – Part 2: Prosecutorial Discretion

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Re: The Criminal Charges Against Aaron Swartz – Part 2: Prosecutorial Discretion

#11
The one objection I have to Kerr's otherwise excellent article is that he entirely ignores the policy aspect of Prosecutorial discretion.

Lots of people openly violate federal criminal laws. An enormous number of them, like Swartz in this case, do so non-openly but in a way that a trivial amount of investigative effort would reveal. The vast majority of them are not charged.

This selective prosecution is a de facto policymaking process. It's not enough that the prosecution not be an abuse of discretion, it needs to also be good policy. Saying that the law needs to be amended to stop enforcement might be the technically proper thing to do but it's not the only option open to opponents of the law.

Re: The Criminal Charges Against Aaron Swartz – Part 2: Prosecutorial Discretion

#12
post #9

Swartz had something else in mind it seems; just taking the law into his own hands I think this is really one of the core reasons so many hackers disagree with this lawyer mindset. A hacker or an entrepreneur is someone who breaks rules to create something. Innovation and consensus are antonyms, not synonyms. Innovation does not happen by committee. If you wait for a "democratic process" that is bought and rigged by…

I think there is a strong grain of truth to what you say. My politics are fairly lawyerly,[1] and I find the anti-democratic sentiment on here disquieting, especially the constant attempts to discredit the democratic process at every turn by unsubstantiated hand waving about how the system is "bought."

[1] I think the chicken came before the egg. The profession attracts people who have a strong sense of order and continuity, it doesn't make them that way. Though I think it's incorrect to juxtapose "innovation" so starkly with a love of order. "Cowboy engineering" isn't universal even among technical people. Lots of wonderful things are pyramids--created by armies of order-loving engineers. 787's aren't built by rule breakers.

Re: The Criminal Charges Against Aaron Swartz – Part 2: Prosecutorial Discretion

#13
I think it will take me a day or two to properly digest this article. That is a good thing. Here are a few gut responses in semi-random order.

1. I absolutely agree that the whole process of plea bargains, threats, etc is unethical, immoral, etc. And we should object to it in all cases, not just when it happens to someone like Aaron Swartz.

2. I absolutely disagree that Aaron's actions would seriously threaten the revenues for journals. Once a journal has been delivered, it has been paid for. Retroactive access to past journals does not lessen the desire for libraries to proactively gain access to future ones. The fact that journals are willing to let articles onto JSTOR where they are often available for a nominal (and in many cases a nonexistent) fee says very clearly that the marginal value that Aaron would have taken would be miniscule.

3. I strongly disagree that the process by which the USA acquires more laws at this point can be fairly described as "democratic". There is a minimum facade of democratic input, and in rare cases (eg SOPA) this can redirect the system. But on the whole the system is not democratic, and describing it as such tends to give people a false sense of complacency.

4. That said, I agree with the general principle under which Orrin would have recommended sentencing. But I emphatically disagree with the specific conclusions there. We have ample evidence from, for instance, the ease with which JSTOR got Aaron to back down and return materials before the prosecutors arrived that he actually could be deterred. There was every reason to believe that he found jail to be a very threatening prospect, and the plea bargain suggested by his lawyer would have, in fact, deterred him from future action. Given that, there was no need to seek large punishment.

5. The specific suggestions on reforming the CFAA seem very good to me. If we're optimistic that the Supreme Court will set precedent interpreting the CFAA in a very good way, then we don't want Congress muddying the waters with a provision that can confuse future courts about whether they should follow the reasoning in precedent or guess at the intent of worse recent statutory law. The ease of elevating crimes to a felony strikes me as a very clear problem.

I could go on, but as I say it will take me some time to digest this article.

Re: The Criminal Charges Against Aaron Swartz – Part 2: Prosecutorial Discretion

#14
post #9

Swartz had something else in mind it seems; just taking the law into his own hands I think this is really one of the core reasons so many hackers disagree with this lawyer mindset. A hacker or an entrepreneur is someone who breaks rules to create something. Innovation and consensus are antonyms, not synonyms. Innovation does not happen by committee. If you wait for a "democratic process" that is bought and rigged by…

aaron's mindset really is different from kerr's, and kerr's thinks his is "better" (i'm not really sure which side to take on this point). but regardless of that point, how should we expect the law to respond to someone like aaron? should we expect that people who intentionally break laws and practice civil disobedience not be punished? if so, why bother even having laws?

Re: The Criminal Charges Against Aaron Swartz – Part 2: Prosecutorial Discretion

#15
post #5

Kerr does a good job reminding readers that what happened to Swartz was absolutely standard for federal prosecutors, and the outrage is triggered largely because he has a powerful constituency looking for redress on his suicide. The important takeaway from this, though, isn't about the injustice that happened to Swartz as much as the ongoing injustice of a system of federal prosecution that does this to many, many mo…

I think a lot (most?) people understand that. Aaron is the rallying cry to spark action. Ortiz is an initial heading to point that action. And while I hope Ortiz does pay (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5071218 for hope it might be), I hope even more that it doesn't stop there. The value in Ortiz "paying" is to show other prosecutors what can happen when they get over zealous. There is only value in that if…

> The value in Ortiz "paying" is to show other prosecutors what can happen when they get over zealous

what i got from the article is that Ortiz was not overzealous. she was doing what most prosecutors do all the time. why should we single her out? if we wanted to fire all prosecutors that used her tactics, we'd probably have to fire the majority of federal prosecutors.

Re: The Criminal Charges Against Aaron Swartz – Part 2: Prosecutorial Discretion

#16
post #12
post #9

Swartz had something else in mind it seems; just taking the law into his own hands I think this is really one of the core reasons so many hackers disagree with this lawyer mindset. A hacker or an entrepreneur is someone who breaks rules to create something. Innovation and consensus are antonyms, not synonyms. Innovation does not happen by committee. If you wait for a "democratic process" that is bought and rigged by…

I think there is a strong grain of truth to what you say. My politics are fairly lawyerly,[1] and I find the anti-democratic sentiment on here disquieting, especially the constant attempts to discredit the democratic process at every turn by unsubstantiated hand waving about how the system is "bought." [1] I think the chicken came before the egg. The profession attracts people who have a strong sense of order and con…

I am happy we can isolate a point of upstream difference here, as many times people argue about downstream things unproductively.

Regarding "cowboy engineering", granted. I would argue that respect for engineering practices/stability comes after that blistering innovation that builds the system in the first place. And in some cases at least, many lawyers seem to endorse anti-democratic measures (e.g. having federal prosecutors immune from election, or having the federal government enforce civil rights measures that were vastly unpopular in the states of enforcement). So it is more complex than pro/anti-democratic on the lawyer side too.

But ultimately even more than "democracy", it may just be whether you explicitly believe the ends justify the means. If your bold stratagem ends in failure, then even more scrutiny is placed on your extralegal or envelope-pushing means (see Napster). If it ends in success, you often have much more popularity/influence than you did before and the envelope-pushing is forgotten or romanticized (see Jobs' early phone-phreaking, or Youtube). So whether or not people verbally agree that the ends justify the means, they usually practically agree, in that one or more of their heros was a nonconformist who did change the system.

Indeed, often the kind of hero responsible for creating the legal system that they're implementing. The guys on the dollar bills, like Washington and Lincoln, led a revolution and suspended habeas corpus respectively; they did what it took to win, and let history be the judge of whether it was right. So from this vantage point, those who simply execute the law without concern for higher morality are respecting the hackers/revolutionaries of times gone by (because they won) while blocking those of the present day (because they haven't won...yet).

Re: The Criminal Charges Against Aaron Swartz – Part 2: Prosecutorial Discretion

#17
post #12
post #9

Swartz had something else in mind it seems; just taking the law into his own hands I think this is really one of the core reasons so many hackers disagree with this lawyer mindset. A hacker or an entrepreneur is someone who breaks rules to create something. Innovation and consensus are antonyms, not synonyms. Innovation does not happen by committee. If you wait for a "democratic process" that is bought and rigged by…

I think there is a strong grain of truth to what you say. My politics are fairly lawyerly,[1] and I find the anti-democratic sentiment on here disquieting, especially the constant attempts to discredit the democratic process at every turn by unsubstantiated hand waving about how the system is "bought." [1] I think the chicken came before the egg. The profession attracts people who have a strong sense of order and con…

OK, here's some substantiation: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/03/opinion/how-bankers-help-d...

HSBC has admitted that it is for all practical purposes a criminal enterprise masquerading as a bank. This is not a paperwork mistake or a lapse of oversight, it's their business model. Nobody will be prosecuted. The people performing these admitted criminal acts will be allowed to keep their paychecks, their bonuses, and in many cases, their jobs. No jail time, no criminal records, not even 40 hours of picking up trash in a park.

Re: The Criminal Charges Against Aaron Swartz – Part 2: Prosecutorial Discretion

#18
It seems reasonable under Kerr's standards and interpretation that action against USA Ortiz, MIT Pres. Reif, and AUSA Heymann, special deterrence can be used to take their jobs, disbar them, or otherwise affect their career prospects in their current disciplines.

The problem with legalistic interpretations is that they presume validity of the current laws as they stand, and that any change amounts only to a chipping away at overreach. Frankly, I'd prefer a repeal of the CFAA until they can get it right, citizens are not well-served when authoritarian lawmakers ask for twice what they'll settle for and receive 150%.

Re: The Criminal Charges Against Aaron Swartz – Part 2: Prosecutorial Discretion

#19
post #12
post #9

Swartz had something else in mind it seems; just taking the law into his own hands I think this is really one of the core reasons so many hackers disagree with this lawyer mindset. A hacker or an entrepreneur is someone who breaks rules to create something. Innovation and consensus are antonyms, not synonyms. Innovation does not happen by committee. If you wait for a "democratic process" that is bought and rigged by…

I think there is a strong grain of truth to what you say. My politics are fairly lawyerly,[1] and I find the anti-democratic sentiment on here disquieting, especially the constant attempts to discredit the democratic process at every turn by unsubstantiated hand waving about how the system is "bought." [1] I think the chicken came before the egg. The profession attracts people who have a strong sense of order and con…

For the record, I do not consider myself anti-democratic. I consider myself pro-democratic. However I do not see that we have a democratic process.

As a concrete example, consider the last election. More than 50% of voters voted for Democrats in Congress (even when you discard seats where there was only one party on the ballot, still over 50% voted that way), and a large majority in polls want Congress to become less partisan. Yet Republicans won Congress by a significant margin, and most members of Congress are in seats where their only realistic political challenges will come from the radical wing of their own political party.

In short, the population wanted moderates with a slight preference for Democrats, yet overwhelmingly we got extremists and a significant Republican majority. This does not reflect the desires of the American people, nor will the actions of our elected officials reflect our aspirations.

I could multiply with examples of how the governance of our society results in things not desired by the population, or not supported by my understanding of how the Constitution was meant to be read. But my point is simple. If you like sausage, you shouldn't learn how it is made. I want to like our legal system, but I've learned just enough about how it works and came to be that I cannot trust it.

Re: The Criminal Charges Against Aaron Swartz – Part 2: Prosecutorial Discretion

#20
post #16
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is a strong grain of truth to what you say. My politics are fairly lawyerly,[1] and I find the anti-democratic sentiment on here disquieting, especially the constant attempts to discredit the democratic process at every turn by unsubstantiated hand waving about how the system is "bought." [1] I think the chicken came before the egg. The profession attracts people who have a strong sense of order and con…

I am happy we can isolate a point of upstream difference here, as many times people argue about downstream things unproductively. Regarding "cowboy engineering", granted. I would argue that respect for engineering practices/stability comes after that blistering innovation that builds the system in the first place. And in some cases at least, many lawyers seem to endorse anti-democratic measures (e.g. having federal p…

> I would argue that respect for engineering practices/stability comes after that blistering innovation that builds the system in the first place.

I quite disagree. The Internet, for example, wasn't the brainchild of rule breakers. It was a defense project, built by people quite thoroughly entrenched in the establishment. The telephone network, that made the whole country smaller, was built by the AT&T monopoly in a very civilized, orderly manner. A thoroughly beauracratic, top down, government agency working with huge, stodgy defense contractors put a man on the moon. For all it's daring, Space X started with a rocket design that was nearly half a century old. Most of the technology of the 20th century is the product of armies of engineers working orderly in top-down organizations. Pyramids.

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