Aaron Swartz: The Book That Changed My Life • Hacker News Board

Re: Aaron Swartz: The Book That Changed My Life

#171

Post by grandalf » Wed, Jan 16, 2013, 6:08 PM UTC

jdunck wrote: post #142

grandalf wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who disagree with Chomsky usually characterize his views as this review does, as blind, wholesale demonization of the United States . Chomsky's views are in fact the ultimate form of patriotism. he expects more of our nation and isn't sentimentally attached to the kind of hero and "good guy" stories that so many people need in order to be able to sleep at night. Anyone who truly cares about America will read a…

Manufacturing Consent is unavailable for streaming via Netflix. It is available via DVD. It is also available on Amazon Instant Video: http://www.amazon.com/Manufacturing-Consent-Noam-Chomsky-Med...

Last time I checked it was also available on Hulu Plus.

Re: Aaron Swartz: The Book That Changed My Life

#172

Post by gruseom » Wed, Jan 16, 2013, 8:09 PM UTC

bromang wrote: post #149

obstacle1 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author is quite explicitly saying that the problem is the volume and variety of information. There is no mention of the 'shallowness' of any one particular reference. The author justifies this by saying no reader can reasonably be expected to be "familiar with" the references Chomsky uses. So what? The references are all there and available for the reader to look up. Once looked up, the reader is familiar with it…

I think it is quite obviously implied that Chomsky's understanding of all his examples is quite shallow and that they are being used mainly to add weight to a predetermined world view. falkenstein's point is that it is almost impossible to understand such a variety of examples in real depth and it is also unlikely that Chomsky himself is using them all correctly. To dismiss this criticism as simply an acceptance of "…

The criticism is laughable. It amounts to saying that because most people aren't Chomsky, and I am not Chomsky, Chomsky must not be Chomsky either. But the man is simply prodigious, as even his detractors routinely admit. There are countless examples.

Re: Aaron Swartz: The Book That Changed My Life

#173

Post by javert » Wed, Jan 16, 2013, 8:15 PM UTC

zecho wrote: post #141

javert wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He contends that there is little moral difference between chattel slavery and renting one's self to an owner or "wage slavery". (from Wikipedia) There is just one example, taken relatively randomly. "Wage slavery" is a completely invalid concept. If I want to work, and somebody wants to pay me a wage, that is moral and proper and free . It's called trade. Someone who holds a gun to my head to force me not to engage f…

I downvoted you because you took that sentence from Wikipedia completely out of context, not just out of context with regard to its surrounding paragraph on Wikipedia, but also because its out of context with regard to the citation at Wikipedia and what Chomsky has to say about worker ownership.

I summarized the essence of why I disagree with the article, and with what Chomsky said. I cannot address all the low-level details here and give a precise rebuttal to everything.

So I acknowledge that I have taken it out of context, but in a more neutral sense. That's just the nature of taking a very detailed point of view, and trying to discuss it on HN with people who have totally different underlying assumptions.

I do want to thank you for explaining why you downvoted me, and for standing up against the person who called me an "imbecile" in a different comment. I really value this community and even when we disagree on philosophy, it's really good when we can all be civil to each other.

Re: Aaron Swartz: The Book That Changed My Life

#174

Post by javert » Wed, Jan 16, 2013, 8:21 PM UTC

alexscheelmeyer wrote: post #154

javert wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for letting everyone know that you agree with everything the review says about Chomsky despite the fact that you haven't actually read Chomsky. You're welcome. I think that's the intellectually responsible and honest thing to do. And it gives people a chance to point out what I am misunderstanding and educate me, if they really think I've gotten it wrong. It seems likely that you are an imbecile. I gave an exp…

"And it gives people a chance to point out what I am misunderstanding and educate me, if they really think I've gotten it wrong." Just a friendly note that this notion will cause you much grief. I used to think that it was the best way to quickly get to the point and figure out what is what in the matter. What happens instead is that people will call you an imbecile and go off on tangents about subjects they have rec…

Thanks for the advice.

I mean, it's not my primary motivation in making comments, for other people to "educate me" in a broad sense.

I meant something more like, "If I happen to have misunderstood some particular concrete thing, people can provide a citation that shows the opposite."

Which, indeed, didn't happen this time. Instead, as you said, there was just a bunch of very high-level disagreement without any "meeting of the minds" on some important lower-level details.

Anyway, my real motivation for posting on the Chomsky stuff was because I feel compelled to call out truly evil pseudo-intellectuals, as I see them, when I see them. Chomsky advocates "anarcho-syndicalism," which is just low-level rule by gangs. He wants to dismantle civilization, which he preaches hatred for. To me, he is in the same moral standard as the intellectuals that came before and enabled the likes of Stalin and Hitler.

Re: Aaron Swartz: The Book That Changed My Life

#175

Post by xk_id » Wed, Jan 16, 2013, 9:28 PM UTC

roguecoder wrote: post #167

xk_id wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for your contribution. But, regarding the first paragraph, I need to ask – are you sure? I cannot sense the distinction you describe. As for the second paragraph, I completely do not understand what it means.

This essay of his is the closest I've found to a summing up of his perspective: http://bostonreview.net/BR30.3/chomsky.php The second paragraph was me trying to, very briefly, sum up the consequences of positivist epistomology. The alternative that Chomsky proposes is that observational knowledge can only describe the things that are true given the process that generates the interactive behaviors we observe. This app…

Thanks. Your summary was eloquent, but I'll have to read the article as well to make sure I understand correctly. What strikes me is that Alfred Korzybski spoke about those same issues (and much more) in his 1933 book called "Science and Sanity" (well worth a read, although bare in mind it took me several years to finish it). So when Chomsky wrote his stuff, Korzybski had already addressed this very comprehensively.

Does Chomski at any point addresses these issues as well? http://www.scribd.com/doc/41399205/Alfred-Korzybski-General-... (jump to p86).

that version of the book is incomplete, but page 86 seems alright.

Re: Aaron Swartz: The Book That Changed My Life

#176

Post by xk_id » Wed, Jan 16, 2013, 10:05 PM UTC

flyinRyan wrote: post #165

xk_id wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for your contribution. But, regarding the first paragraph, I need to ask – are you sure? I cannot sense the distinction you describe. As for the second paragraph, I completely do not understand what it means.

For the second paragraph: Imagine a man warped out of the past somewhere into the future. His clothes look funny and any interaction he makes with people draws an odd response. Some give him money, some people say "no thank you" for some reason, and so on. He can test this, he can see that nearly everyone behaves this way. So he assumes this is simply how people here behave. Later on, something happens that forces hi…

I really like your comment, and I really wish to reply with a video with a Louie CK stand-up comedy piece about a lion and a giraffe. But I'm not sure if I can post the link here.

Edit: oh well, what the heck, maybe mods can delete this if it's inappropriate. http://www.putlocker.com/file/718CD52BD479CE4A#, the joke is at minute 2:00!

Re: Aaron Swartz: The Book That Changed My Life

#177

Post by breakyerself » Thu, Jan 17, 2013, 4:44 AM UTC

DigitalJack wrote: post #37

I found the following review of the book interesting. I always like to read the "negative" reviews of something because I find it easier to make a decision whether to read something or buy something (books, software, food, etc...) based on whether I can identify with the negative comments or not. If someone has recommended something to me, and the negative comments are inconsequential to me (or absurd, etc...), I'm m…

"Chomsky is an avowed atheist and believes life is meaningless." This review really jumped the shark when he resorted to bigotry. Nothing about being atheist makes life meaningless. It actually makes it more precious to believe this is our only shot at life. Instead of treating life as some testing ground for earning rewards in some hypothetical afterlife. If I knew there was life after death I don't think I'd be as worried about getting things right this time around since I could always hope things are better after I die..

Re: Aaron Swartz: The Book That Changed My Life

#178

Post by breakyerself » Thu, Jan 17, 2013, 5:25 AM UTC

cynicalkane wrote: post #58

fghh45sdfhr3 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His presumption here is that if the United States changes its behavior, that terrorist attacks will then cease. Islamic terrorists, in fact, want a pan-world government under Talibanesque repressive sharia law, a vision that mandates the overthrow of all free nations beginning with ours. First, It is not the US's fault it got attacked, Gandhi changed British foreign policy with peaceful protests. The terrorists chose…

It's telling that you are supporting a person who thinks governments routinely lie, then you auto-assume that anything Bin Laden says is a representative of the entire motivating ideology of all terrorism. The spirit of modern political analysis is to judge organizations as they do, not as they say through a mouthpiece. Terrorists don't get a free pass on this. The activity of Al-Qaeda and similar organizations in pl…

So it's a ruse? What motive does OBL have to lie about here? I don't disagree that al qaeda has the unobtainable goal of creating a world califate, but I also do think that American policies could have been a factor in strategic decisions for where to attack. I also think the main line of arguing here is not about al qaedas long term goals, but the recruiting. Things like invading Iraq on false pretenses, abu garab, guantonimo, the cia coup in Iran. These things create anger in the arab world that al quaeda can channel for whatever goals they want. From his critics you would think chomsky consideres al qaeda and taliban to be freedom fighters. Which I've never heard. Maybe parts of the palestinian resistance, but that's another beast.

Re: Aaron Swartz: The Book That Changed My Life

#179

Post by mistermumble » Thu, Jan 17, 2013, 8:03 AM UTC

zby wrote: post #50

DigitalJack wrote: post #37

I found the following review of the book interesting. I always like to read the "negative" reviews of something because I find it easier to make a decision whether to read something or buy something (books, software, food, etc...) based on whether I can identify with the negative comments or not. If someone has recommended something to me, and the negative comments are inconsequential to me (or absurd, etc...), I'm m…

Not entirely convincing. I personally prefer Falkenstein as my Chomsky critic: The spread is a debating tactic where you present a set of supporting arguments so wide and particular your opponents are unable to rebut them all because 1) they have day jobs and 2) they have limited space or time to address them in any particular forum. A champion spreader is Noam Chomsky, who selectively recites facts of world history…

   > your opponents are unable to rebut them all because
   > 1) they have day jobs and 2) they have limited space
   > or time to address them in any particular forum.

There are plenty of people on the right whose day jobs involve addressing the issues that Chomsky addresses. They do not lack space, either in terms of disk storage on Web servers, and column-inches on hard copy publications. What they lack are logic, facts, and a cohesive conceptual framework.

Re: Aaron Swartz: The Book That Changed My Life

#180

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jan 17, 2013, 8:07 AM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #74

It’s undoubtedly the best documentary I’ve seen, weaving together all sorts of clever tricks to enlighten and entertain. This is sadly ironic; since Chomsky is one of the most manipulative and dishonest writers I've had the displeasure of reading. I'm not going to engage in an exhaustive deconstruction of any of his work here, since I don't keep any of his books on my shelf. I'll just say that I think his mischaracte…

[deleted]