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White House raises petition signature threshold to 100K

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Re: White House raises petition signature threshold to 100K

#111

Post by jberryman »

jlangenauer wrote: post #92
rauljara wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apologies in advance. I am so sick of these democracy doesn't work, the powers that be own us, utterly worthless statements. Worthless is the sense that all they do is justify your own inaction. So many people take the fact the government doesn't work the way they want it to as evidence that democracy doesn't work. It's a fallacy. What they have trouble understanding is that while we may largely agree that certain pr…

It's not an argument that "democracy" doesn't work, it's an argument that the current institutional arrangements aren't really democracy - at least in the sense that the public are actually directly or indirectly governing themselves. Now, in that sense, let's review exactly how "our"[ ] government measures up: Individual citizens or groups of citizens have minimal means of influencing their own government through th…

> the current institutional arrangements aren't really democracy

Well, not in the Greek sense; the US system was designed to lead to good governance, and to protect personal freedom, neither of which are preserved in a true Democracy.

Re: White House raises petition signature threshold to 100K

#112

Post by rossjudson »

brudgers wrote: post #59

My first reaction to the announcement was negative: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5064624 But now, I am not so sure. Raising the threshold seems like a sound response to the program gaining traction if the Whitehouse wants it to succeed - closing it down would be the simple response if their goal was not to be bothered. Raising the threshold (a second time) invites people to take the low effort act of signing a…

Firing a prosecutor precisely over the overreach issue creates structural change. The irony of reversed change-through-intimidation is evident.

Re: White House raises petition signature threshold to 100K

#113

Post by duaneb »

rauljara wrote: post #86
jlangenauer wrote: post #27

Petitions are encouraged precisely because they're completely ineffective: a safety valve to allow people to believe they're effecting change when in fact nothing is changing. If petitions actually worked, they'd be banned.

Apologies in advance. I am so sick of these democracy doesn't work, the powers that be own us, utterly worthless statements. Worthless is the sense that all they do is justify your own inaction. So many people take the fact the government doesn't work the way they want it to as evidence that democracy doesn't work. It's a fallacy. What they have trouble understanding is that while we may largely agree that certain pr…

>But when positions do gain support, things really do change. We've passed constitutional amendments outlawing slavery, giving women the vote, and instituting civil rights. Jesus Christ, do you understand just how hard getting each of those things passed was? Do you understand how many entrenched and powerful interests had to be overcome? Do you understand just how little shouting that democracy doesn't work would have accomplished when faced with moral injustices like that?

People often forget that the fact that the US moves slowly (glacially, I often feel) is frustrating but a GOOD THING. As much as things may be unfortunate right now, they are unfortunate situations we can live with. Far more worrying (to me, anyway) are radical motions that change our country drastically without much debate. Want some examples? Look at post 9/11/01 us government. We passed the patriot act exactly a month and a half later and started two wars.

Yea, I really wish that we could have tax reform, gay marriage, regulated cannabis, etc etc, but not without extensive debate: generally, a conservative (in the rate-of-change sense) country is far more stable than one that is purely held sway to public opinion.

Anyway, petitions really have nothing to do with democracy. It's just a way of people getting their voice heard at the White House, and if you think it's anything more, you're delusional.

Re: White House raises petition signature threshold to 100K

#114

Post by KaoruAoiShiho »

rauljara wrote: post #86
jlangenauer wrote: post #27

Petitions are encouraged precisely because they're completely ineffective: a safety valve to allow people to believe they're effecting change when in fact nothing is changing. If petitions actually worked, they'd be banned.

Apologies in advance. I am so sick of these democracy doesn't work, the powers that be own us, utterly worthless statements. Worthless is the sense that all they do is justify your own inaction. So many people take the fact the government doesn't work the way they want it to as evidence that democracy doesn't work. It's a fallacy. What they have trouble understanding is that while we may largely agree that certain pr…

Petitions aren't democracy... they're the definition of special interest.

Re: White House raises petition signature threshold to 100K

#115

Post by Retric »

snitko wrote: post #104
bad_user wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not agree with you. You're basically advocating for a form of anarchy in which one makes his own law based on how much money he can pay, however in a true anarchy money would have no place. This complicates issues greatly, because without placing a price-tag on value, then all value you create is relative and selling it is the product of opportunity. This might not be bad, but because of this, even in anarchy th…

The notion that in an anarchy you would have no police, courts, currency, and all other important things is a product of a lack of imagination. Simply because there is no government, doesn't mean there is no market for the things a government provides. What government had for a long time is a monopoly for many services and it is precisely the reason why it is so hard for people to imagine how a police or defense coul…

There is plenty of evidence of what happens without government, effective replacement of government services does not happen. Any argument based on that premise is clearly wrong.

Re: White House raises petition signature threshold to 100K

#116

Post by sycren »

jlangenauer wrote: post #92
rauljara wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apologies in advance. I am so sick of these democracy doesn't work, the powers that be own us, utterly worthless statements. Worthless is the sense that all they do is justify your own inaction. So many people take the fact the government doesn't work the way they want it to as evidence that democracy doesn't work. It's a fallacy. What they have trouble understanding is that while we may largely agree that certain pr…

It's not an argument that "democracy" doesn't work, it's an argument that the current institutional arrangements aren't really democracy - at least in the sense that the public are actually directly or indirectly governing themselves. Now, in that sense, let's review exactly how "our"[ ] government measures up: Individual citizens or groups of citizens have minimal means of influencing their own government through th…

While the opposition against SOPA was not a petition, would you not argue that it was a democratic victory?

Re: White House raises petition signature threshold to 100K

#117

Post by rorrr »

TheCapn wrote: post #65
jlangenauer wrote: post #27

Petitions are encouraged precisely because they're completely ineffective: a safety valve to allow people to believe they're effecting change when in fact nothing is changing. If petitions actually worked, they'd be banned.

Maybe that's how their interpreted by many but my personal interpretation is optimistic, but different. Pretend you're a government official. Every day you have several dozen, if not hundreds or more "requests" made of your office. Fix this. Change that. Ban it too! It all just blurs together. Eventually you need to filter the noise, "these quacks are all just in it for themselves. I represent the people, I need to k…

That's not how these petitions are used by the current administration. Just take a look at the responses to completely rational petitions, like the ones about legalizing pot. Scientifically and medically, marijuana is way way safer and less damaging than alcohol. The response we got is absolutely insane, political bullshit.

The goal of these petitions is to create visibility of some sort of interaction with citizens, to create an illusion of participation, an illusion of a democracy.

Hey, it does fool most people.

Re: White House raises petition signature threshold to 100K

#119

Post by Wingman4l7 »

robomartin wrote: post #108

Repeat after me: I will not discuss politics on HN. I will not discuss politics on HN. I will not discuss politics on HN. I will not discuss politics on HN. I will not discuss politics on HN. One of my personal guidance statements (I hate resolutions) for this year in order to (a) keep the off-topic noise down and, (b) not engage in debates that are often pointless, can be offensive and end-up not helping anyone or f…

I did hesitate before submitting this, but decided that it was on topic as it may have insights into the ever-present issue of signal-to-noise ratios in large online communities.
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