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Rep. Zoe Lofgren Introduces Aaron's Law [pdf]

lofgren.house.gov

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Re: Rep. Zoe Lofgren Introduces Aaron's Law [pdf]

#161

Post by dlitz »

tptacek wrote: post #121
ScottBurson wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really think that any legal change would reduce the need for security auditing of apps? I'm afraid that seems awfully unlikely to me. Even if US-based attackers would be deterred, there are plenty of places in the world the Internet reaches but US jurisdiction doesn't.

I think the effort put into securing computers is an inevitable dead-weight loss. Laws against pollution don't make everyone stop polluting; some polluters will just find creative ways to conceal what they're doing. Definitely doesn't mean I think pollution should be legal.

Computer security, at least while attached to the Internet, doesn't work that way. When all it takes is one attacker anywhere in the world to write a worm that compromises everyone, everyone needs to secure their systems.

Some problems really are best solved using technical means. If we stop building systems that can be exploited by arbitrary outsiders (yes, this is possible, and probably not that expensive in the long run if we standardize a few good protocols), then we can should be able to reach a point where a certain baseline of security can just be taken for granted.

Re: Rep. Zoe Lofgren Introduces Aaron's Law [pdf]

#162

Post by foxbunny »

maratd wrote: post #93
btilly wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not exactly. The statutory limit was that much. The prosecutor claimed to be planning to press for about 12-14x the plea offer.

> The prosecutor claimed to be planning to press for about 12-14x the plea offer. Is that better? There comes a point where it doesn't make a difference anymore. Ever see a sale like that? Where one day something costs 10 bucks and then the next day it's 170? Me neither. That's not a deal. It's blackmail. Do what we want or we'll do our best to destroy your whole life. Justice, eh?

We'll let you off the hook if you pay us $200 of the $2000 that you may or may not actually owe us. And just in case you've missed it, there are four snipers at the top of the roof. I don't know what they're doing there, but thought you might wanna know.

Re: Rep. Zoe Lofgren Introduces Aaron's Law [pdf]

#163

Post by foxbunny »

eru wrote: post #107
mindslight wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never mind the nonlinear severity function of time in prison. Which gives me another idea - fungible jail time. I'd have spent a day in jail for Aaron.

> Which gives me another idea - fungible jail time. I'd have spent a day in jail for Aaron. Not a good idea. Well connected people will get off lightly.

Not just that. Real criminals would find a way to force others to take their place.

Re: Rep. Zoe Lofgren Introduces Aaron's Law [pdf]

#164

Post by foxbunny »

marshray wrote: post #135
tptacek wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Breaking into a supply closet is not a fact that helps establish any element of tax fraud.

So it's "breaking in" if it helps the prosecution's case, by definition. What a weird system.

"What a weird system."

A little yeah. But check this out. If you steal something, you won't automatically go to jail. Someone has to sue you because of that first. Same thing, I think.

Re: Rep. Zoe Lofgren Introduces Aaron's Law [pdf]

#165

Post by biot »

eru wrote: post #107
mindslight wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never mind the nonlinear severity function of time in prison. Which gives me another idea - fungible jail time. I'd have spent a day in jail for Aaron.

> Which gives me another idea - fungible jail time. I'd have spent a day in jail for Aaron. Not a good idea. Well connected people will get off lightly.

As has been documented with China's "body doubles":

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2...

Re: Rep. Zoe Lofgren Introduces Aaron's Law [pdf]

#166

Post by mindslight »

tedunangst wrote: post #130
mindslight wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Connected in what way? Bernie Madoff isn't going to find any friends to do time for him. Monetary compensation though? That's a whole nother can of worms. Although I've got to wonder if the incentives are aligned such that it would encourage better prison conditions.

Gangs? You already get promoted for doing time, providing opportunities for volunteering seems unwise.

hm. Well, if we allow a volunteer to stop volunteering at any point, this necessitates that the actual inmate remains in jail (concurrently) until the original sentence is completely fulfilled. So a 20 year gangbanger rap might turn into 4 5-year sentences. Or 20 1-year sentences. But the latter might be foolish, as the gang would lose power if most members were out of the game.

Just was trying to think of ways for 'social proof' that certain sentences were outrageous and ridiculous (beyond juries, since their "peer" requirement has been effectively destroyed in today's specialization-based society).

Re: Rep. Zoe Lofgren Introduces Aaron's Law [pdf]

#167

Post by tptacek »

dlitz wrote: post #161
tptacek wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the effort put into securing computers is an inevitable dead-weight loss. Laws against pollution don't make everyone stop polluting; some polluters will just find creative ways to conceal what they're doing. Definitely doesn't mean I think pollution should be legal.

Computer security, at least while attached to the Internet, doesn't work that way. When all it takes is one attacker anywhere in the world to write a worm that compromises everyone, everyone needs to secure their systems. Some problems really are best solved using technical means. If we stop building systems that can be exploited by arbitrary outsiders (yes, this is possible, and probably not that expensive in the lo…

The idea that abusing people's computers to disable their businesses or gain access to confidential information should be legal because "that problem is best solved using technical means" is so hostile to my perspective that there's probably little chance of us learning anything from each other by debating it.

Re: Rep. Zoe Lofgren Introduces Aaron's Law [pdf]

#168

Post by tedunangst »

mindslight wrote: post #166
tedunangst wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gangs? You already get promoted for doing time, providing opportunities for volunteering seems unwise.

hm. Well, if we allow a volunteer to stop volunteering at any point, this necessitates that the actual inmate remains in jail (concurrently) until the original sentence is completely fulfilled. So a 20 year gangbanger rap might turn into 4 5-year sentences. Or 20 1-year sentences. But the latter might be foolish, as the gang would lose power if most members were out of the game. Just was trying to think of ways for '…

I've spent some time thinking about this myself, and about time vs money tradeoffs. Depends on what you think prison is for. If it's rehab, rehabbing a group of friends doesn't seem to work. If it's a safe place to keep bad people, you're not keeping them there. If it's about punishment, then maybe.

But prison sucks not just because you have to eat crappy food. It's because you have to eat crappy food everyday. If a rotating crew each serves one day, what's that? I can go a day without eating. This is a sum of the parts less than the whole situation. And the key is that people in jail aren't free to pick their schedule. You don't get to swap out with a buddy so you can attend your sister's wedding. If you're stuck in a shitty place unless you get someone to cover your shift, you're not in prison. You're working at walmart.

Incidentally, I've read that hiring prison doubles is a thing in China. It's illegal, so you're effectively under house arrest for the duration to avoid detection, but you're also not in prison. The guy you hired to show up and say your name is.

If a sentence is outrageous, you get a crowd of people to march around and protest until the governor or president grants a pardon. That's the existing process to deal with exceptional circumstances.

Re: Rep. Zoe Lofgren Introduces Aaron's Law [pdf]

#169

Post by mindslight »

tedunangst wrote: post #168
mindslight wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

hm. Well, if we allow a volunteer to stop volunteering at any point, this necessitates that the actual inmate remains in jail (concurrently) until the original sentence is completely fulfilled. So a 20 year gangbanger rap might turn into 4 5-year sentences. Or 20 1-year sentences. But the latter might be foolish, as the gang would lose power if most members were out of the game. Just was trying to think of ways for '…

I've spent some time thinking about this myself, and about time vs money tradeoffs. Depends on what you think prison is for. If it's rehab, rehabbing a group of friends doesn't seem to work. If it's a safe place to keep bad people, you're not keeping them there. If it's about punishment, then maybe. But prison sucks not just because you have to eat crappy food. It's because you have to eat crappy food everyday. If a…

> rehabbing a group of friends doesn't seem to work

And if it were gangsters, it seems like it would have the opposite effect. Three square meals a day and some downtime to plan your next misdeed. And heck, the same goes for activists actually. So there would have to be no personal contact. Not that the US prison system is in any way about rehab.

> If it's a safe place to keep bad people, you're not keeping them there ... This is a sum of the parts less than the whole situation

Well presumably only other bad people sign up to help out bad people, and the idea would be that only with enough support, the sum of the parts would indeed be reduced. Trying to gauge my own utility function, it feels that sentences from between 3 months to 2 years would have corresponding increasing harshness on life-as-I-know-it. Under and it's a vacation, over and my present existence is basically completely gone. Of course those with a different uh, world view, would have a wildly different utility function.

OTOH this is clearly not a DIY avenue, and if that political will were actually available, instead of further codifying the prison industry why not just actually fix the damned legal system instead - vague laws, prosecutorial overreach, understandable due process, right to representation, broken sentencing, etc.

Re: Rep. Zoe Lofgren Introduces Aaron's Law [pdf]

#170

Post by marshray »

danielweber wrote: post #157
marshray wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any evidence that MIT's 'policies' were anything other than made up on the spot? As far as I can tell it looks like "OMG! The attacker has changed his MAC address! We don't know how to stop him! He's stealing all the priceless research papers...call the DHS cyber-espionage defense unit for help! the packets are coming from INSIDE THE WIRING CLOSET!!"

"Let's stop the guy who keeps on breaking into our network" is not "made up on the spot." MIT gives you wide power on the Internet. You aren't firewalled at all. I'm not even sure if they filter port 25. But you also have the responsibility that comes with that power. The fact that they don't wrap you in bubble-wrap doesn't mean you can't hurt yourself or others.

> MIT gives you wide power on the Internet. You aren't firewalled at all.

So since Swartz was considered a guest on the MIT campus, he could hardly have been "breaking in" to this wide-open non-firewalled network.

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