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Rep. Zoe Lofgren Introduces Aaron's Law [pdf]

lofgren.house.gov

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Re: Rep. Zoe Lofgren Introduces Aaron's Law [pdf]

#151

Post by BrokenPipe »

spinlocked wrote: post #149

Lets just sit back and revel in the irony of programmers discussing broad fixes to federal laws, based on insights from reddit comments. To all the armchair legal experts of HN, here's a challenge: draft legislation that fixes what you propose and post it here.If you can't do that, you are not qualified to comment on the matter. The EFF has addressed the technology aspects of this. You have ascended into general purp…

It's quite disturbing that people expert in technology (such as HN visitors are) should not comment on the matter because they have no 'law' qualification.

Is this 'law' thinghy you are talking about something that only applies to people with 'law' qualifications?

Oh no you say? it applies to everyone ? OMG!

Here's my draft legislation: get rid of the laws used to incriminate Aaron as they are crazy, overreaching and unjust. No need to polish a turd and I'm sure real crimes are already covered by non computer laws.

Re: Rep. Zoe Lofgren Introduces Aaron's Law [pdf]

#152

Post by PeterisP »

jacquesm wrote: post #133
jmvoodoo wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I got your point. I just approached the problem from the other side. I think limiting a prosecutor's ability to bargain would be easier from a legislative standpoint than getting involved in sentencing, and more effective since the sentence asked by the prosecution is really just a recommendation. Either way, the important part is ratio of sentence to plea bargain, if I understood you correctly.

Prosecutors will go for very low plea bargains if their case is shaky, with huge penalties for not accepting the plea, so many shaky cases never make it to trial. By reversing the situation you end up with half of the maximum rather than maybe 10% of it, in effect most plea offers would increase rather than stay at their current level and many more cases would have to be tried.

Well that is the whole point - if the case is shaky (i.e., the accused is likely to be innocent), then the case should be either dropped or go to trial.

Any system that results in accepted guilty pleas for such cases is broken and evil, and should be destroyed.

Re: Rep. Zoe Lofgren Introduces Aaron's Law [pdf]

#153

Post by [deleted] »

tptacek wrote: post #7

Would Aaron's Law have helped Aaron? Both Orin Kerr and Jennifer Granick have said that his actions in evading filtering and shutoffs on MIT's networks would have created a plausible argument for the prosecution that he had been evading specific code-based authorization mechanisms and would have known his access was unauthorized. If you read Reason, you're immediately suspicious of laws with people's names on them; t…

[deleted]

Re: Rep. Zoe Lofgren Introduces Aaron's Law [pdf]

#154

Post by josteink »

rplacd wrote: post #90

Who does the typesetting on these documents? I'm curious - the Supreme Court looks like it uses TeX; here it looks like they're rendering XML.

I was curious about this as well.

It looks like a XML document with some standard XSLT presented in a browser and "printed" to PDF.

Which to me sounds way too technical for any lawmaker to be doing.

Anyone got any insight into this?

Re: Rep. Zoe Lofgren Introduces Aaron's Law [pdf]

#156

Post by jimbokun »

RobAley wrote: post #146
anigbrowl wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See also http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674051751

For reference, here in the UK people (typically) get 33% off their sentence if they plead guilty. There was a push in 2011 to make it 50%, but that was rejected. However the people being prosecuted don't know in advance what sentence they will receive exactly. Sentencing is carried out after the verdict (sometime quite a while after if "pre-sentence reports" need to be compiled). There are sentencing guidelines, so t…

"Still, there are very, very few occasions where it is reported that innocent people plead guilty due to the reduction in risk."

Is part of the plea bargain deal not discussing your innocence? In other words, how do we know whether people taking plea bargains are innocent?

Re: Rep. Zoe Lofgren Introduces Aaron's Law [pdf]

#157

Post by danielweber »

marshray wrote: post #138
tptacek wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is something that apparently shocked Swartz. In fact, whatever the administration at MIT may have felt at the time, Swartz wasn't violating the community norms as I understood them. Maybe there's something sacred about wiring closets at MIT, but every other place there seems to be a hobbyist lockpicking playground. This is obviously a situation where the community norms of MIT have collided painfully with the p…

Is there any evidence that MIT's 'policies' were anything other than made up on the spot? As far as I can tell it looks like "OMG! The attacker has changed his MAC address! We don't know how to stop him! He's stealing all the priceless research papers...call the DHS cyber-espionage defense unit for help! the packets are coming from INSIDE THE WIRING CLOSET!!"

"Let's stop the guy who keeps on breaking into our network" is not "made up on the spot."

MIT gives you wide power on the Internet. You aren't firewalled at all. I'm not even sure if they filter port 25.

But you also have the responsibility that comes with that power. The fact that they don't wrap you in bubble-wrap doesn't mean you can't hurt yourself or others.

Re: Rep. Zoe Lofgren Introduces Aaron's Law [pdf]

#158

Post by RobAley »

jimbokun wrote: post #156
RobAley wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For reference, here in the UK people (typically) get 33% off their sentence if they plead guilty. There was a push in 2011 to make it 50%, but that was rejected. However the people being prosecuted don't know in advance what sentence they will receive exactly. Sentencing is carried out after the verdict (sometime quite a while after if "pre-sentence reports" need to be compiled). There are sentencing guidelines, so t…

"Still, there are very, very few occasions where it is reported that innocent people plead guilty due to the reduction in risk." Is part of the plea bargain deal not discussing your innocence? In other words, how do we know whether people taking plea bargains are innocent?

No. It's not a deal thats "made" per-se, there are no conditions to be haggled over, its simply that Judges will automatically award the reduced penalty at the sentencing stage if the defendant pleads guilty.

Re: Rep. Zoe Lofgren Introduces Aaron's Law [pdf]

#159

Post by rplacd »

josteink wrote: post #154
rplacd wrote: post #90

Who does the typesetting on these documents? I'm curious - the Supreme Court looks like it uses TeX; here it looks like they're rendering XML.

I was curious about this as well. It looks like a XML document with some standard XSLT presented in a browser and "printed" to PDF. Which to me sounds way too technical for any lawmaker to be doing. Anyone got any insight into this?

I just found this - http://xml.house.gov/drafting.htm

Some relevant quotes:

> ...most legislation in the House is worked on by attorneys in the Office. The signed paper version submitted to the Clerk of the House on the House Floor is the official document of record.

> HOLC, the main drafters of House legislation, consists of approximately 35 attorneys and a support staff of about 15 individuals, and is headed by the Legislative Counsel of the House who is appointed by the Speaker of the House...

> Because the paper version is the document of record, the drafters provide their clients with typeset drafts or PDF files that can be printed in the client’s office. The paper version of legislation is currently created in one of two ways...

The gory details come just after that, but the site itself seems out of date. More interesting is the peek at the physical process of drafting legislation.

Re: Rep. Zoe Lofgren Introduces Aaron's Law [pdf]

#160

Post by graysnorf »

edanm wrote: post #144
tptacek wrote: post #7

Would Aaron's Law have helped Aaron? Both Orin Kerr and Jennifer Granick have said that his actions in evading filtering and shutoffs on MIT's networks would have created a plausible argument for the prosecution that he had been evading specific code-based authorization mechanisms and would have known his access was unauthorized. If you read Reason, you're immediately suspicious of laws with people's names on them; t…

"If you read Reason, you're immediately suspicious of laws with people's names on them; they're often more about PR than about well-thought-out policy changes." What's Reason?

A libertarian-leaning magazine.

http://reason.com/

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