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Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker

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Re: Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker

#51

Post by djt »

downandout wrote: post #48

The reality is that it is quite rare for a federal defendant to kill themselves. To have 2 of them (that we know about) stemming from prosecutions by one individual, I would have to say, is pretty remarkable. While it could just be a coincidence, the one common denominator in these two statistically rare incidents is Stephen Heymann. We'll just call him "Suicide Steve". On a somewhat related note, the callousness of…

Is it quite rare though? It would be good to see some figures on that.

It could also be sampling bias playing a part.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_bias

Re: Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker

#52

Post by downandout »

djt wrote: post #51
downandout wrote: post #48

The reality is that it is quite rare for a federal defendant to kill themselves. To have 2 of them (that we know about) stemming from prosecutions by one individual, I would have to say, is pretty remarkable. While it could just be a coincidence, the one common denominator in these two statistically rare incidents is Stephen Heymann. We'll just call him "Suicide Steve". On a somewhat related note, the callousness of…

Is it quite rare though? It would be good to see some figures on that. It could also be sampling bias playing a part. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_bias

Two does not necessarily make a trend, to be sure. However, if the odds are 1 in 10,000, a small number of incidents quickly become a significant indicator that the way this guy handles cases dramatically increases the likelihood of suicide.

I don't know if any reports have been done on the subject that would be relevant here (specific to federal defendants, as they generally are looking at more time and are more likely to be experiencing jail for the first time than state defendants). However, anectdotally, I know a fair number of criminal defense attorneys, and they all say that it's actually quite rare. It seems that most defense attorneys have never had a criminal client commit suicide.

Re: Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker

#53

Post by ars »

BrokenPipe wrote: post #50
ars wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does this have to do with what jamesaguilar posted? > No. Surely, something else is broken. Really? There are no other options you can think of? Perhaps the US is simply stricter? I quote from the article this image is from: "Still, it is the length of sentences that truly distinguishes American prison policy. Indeed, the mere number of sentences imposed here would not place the United States at the top of the i…

Increase ? Why does that look to me like a spike ? And are you denying either of these claims ? Because if not it seems like you are just nitpicking to me, the point of the parent is still fully correct regardless of the graph. A. "The United States has 5% of the world's population and 25% of the world's incarcerated population." B. "imprisons a larger percentage of its black population than South Africa did at the h…

No, the point of the parent is not correct.

The parent is implying that the US manipulates things so that innocent people go to prison. This is not the case. There is also no spike, but rather an increase followed by leveling off.

The US does keep people in prison longer than other nations, there is no dispute there. But it does not imprison more people than other nations. This is a subtle but very important difference.

Re: Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker

#54

Post by BrokenPipe »

ars wrote: post #53
BrokenPipe wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Increase ? Why does that look to me like a spike ? And are you denying either of these claims ? Because if not it seems like you are just nitpicking to me, the point of the parent is still fully correct regardless of the graph. A. "The United States has 5% of the world's population and 25% of the world's incarcerated population." B. "imprisons a larger percentage of its black population than South Africa did at the h…

No, the point of the parent is not correct. The parent is implying that the US manipulates things so that innocent people go to prison. This is not the case. There is also no spike, but rather an increase followed by leveling off. The US does keep people in prison longer than other nations, there is no dispute there. But it does not imprison more people than other nations. This is a subtle but very important differen…

The US does imprison more people than other nations according to

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcerat...

And whether the US keeps people in prison longer than other nations or not, doesn't really help you case IMHO.

Re: Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker

#55

Post by Fjolle »

downandout wrote: post #52
djt wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it quite rare though? It would be good to see some figures on that. It could also be sampling bias playing a part. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_bias

Two does not necessarily make a trend, to be sure. However, if the odds are 1 in 10,000, a small number of incidents quickly become a significant indicator that the way this guy handles cases dramatically increases the likelihood of suicide. I don't know if any reports have been done on the subject that would be relevant here (specific to federal defendants, as they generally are looking at more time and are more lik…

You assume way too much. I highly doubt that federal defendants are 10 times less likely to commit suicide than the general population in USA.

For me personally two is still waaay to low for it to be considered anything but a fluke.

Re: Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker

#56

Post by djt »

downandout wrote: post #52
djt wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it quite rare though? It would be good to see some figures on that. It could also be sampling bias playing a part. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_bias

Two does not necessarily make a trend, to be sure. However, if the odds are 1 in 10,000, a small number of incidents quickly become a significant indicator that the way this guy handles cases dramatically increases the likelihood of suicide. I don't know if any reports have been done on the subject that would be relevant here (specific to federal defendants, as they generally are looking at more time and are more lik…

Two is a pretty low sample for it to be statistically significant.

Anecdotaly, a friend of mine committed suicide and I later found out he was going to jail for robbery.

Re: Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker

#57

Post by downandout »

djt wrote: post #56
downandout wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two does not necessarily make a trend, to be sure. However, if the odds are 1 in 10,000, a small number of incidents quickly become a significant indicator that the way this guy handles cases dramatically increases the likelihood of suicide. I don't know if any reports have been done on the subject that would be relevant here (specific to federal defendants, as they generally are looking at more time and are more lik…

Two is a pretty low sample for it to be statistically significant. Anecdotaly, a friend of mine committed suicide and I later found out he was going to jail for robbery.

As I said in the original comment, it could just be a coincidence. However, if the bodies continue to pile up over the years (or more likely, that there are far more suicides already on the guy's resume that we simply haven't heard about), that will become less and less likely.

Re: Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker

#58

Post by ars »

BrokenPipe wrote: post #54
ars wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the point of the parent is not correct. The parent is implying that the US manipulates things so that innocent people go to prison. This is not the case. There is also no spike, but rather an increase followed by leveling off. The US does keep people in prison longer than other nations, there is no dispute there. But it does not imprison more people than other nations. This is a subtle but very important differen…

The US does imprison more people than other nations according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcerat... And whether the US keeps people in prison longer than other nations or not, doesn't really help you case IMHO.

Go back and read it again.

This list of not the number of different people who go to prison, it's the percentage at any given moment. So a longer sentence will inflate the numbers on this list.

Re: Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker

#59

Post by regularfry »

jamesaguilar wrote: post #36

I can understand how people might expect different behavior in the Swartz case. But what in the behavior discussed in this article is other than exactly what you would expect? Of course she is going to prosecute a credit card thief who has stolen tens of thousands of cards. How does this stack up as added evidence against her?

If the defendant kills themselves before trial, that's a failure to prosecute. If the prosecutor caused that suicide, that must count against them, no?

Re: Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker

#60

Post by BrokenPipe »

ars wrote: post #58
BrokenPipe wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US does imprison more people than other nations according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcerat... And whether the US keeps people in prison longer than other nations or not, doesn't really help you case IMHO.

Go back and read it again. This list of not the number of different people who go to prison, it's the percentage at any given moment. So a longer sentence will inflate the numbers on this list.

Still, the US has more people in jail than any other country however you look at it. The fact that this is due to longer prison terms is relevant but doesn't change a thing does it ?

I wouldn't suppose that citizens of the US are more criminal than the avg citizen of the world.

It's just that you have the Prison Industry and legalized corruption (see lobbying)

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