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Aaron Swartz: The Book That Changed My Life

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Re: Aaron Swartz: The Book That Changed My Life

#51

Post by cynicalkane »

Volpe wrote: post #46
DigitalJack wrote: post #37

I found the following review of the book interesting. I always like to read the "negative" reviews of something because I find it easier to make a decision whether to read something or buy something (books, software, food, etc...) based on whether I can identify with the negative comments or not. If someone has recommended something to me, and the negative comments are inconsequential to me (or absurd, etc...), I'm m…

I think if someone is going to criticise Chomsky, they need more than strawman arguments to do so. Of course proper criticism would require proper analysis, and thus probably be a lot longer than a typical Amazon review. What do you find interesting about this review?

I have read some amount of Chomsky and do not find these to be strawman arguments. An "us vs them" attitude pervades his writing. One common pattern is overweening assumption backed by laser-guided cherry picking of examples.

You can see the above pattern all throughout this thread, in fact. Broad assumptions that seem true enough at first, but are overwhelmingly applied in a toxic way. Meanwhile people are sick of this proselytizing attitude, only to be accused of setting up "strawmen" or "not understanding Chomsky" or something. There is something dangerous about an ideology that causes people to devalue the opinions of those who don't understand it.

But one of the characteristic features of this kind of position is that the people who live in a world of "good vs ignorance" are generally unable to self-examine, at least for that particular facet of their ideology.

Re: Aaron Swartz: The Book That Changed My Life

#53

Post by javert »

DigitalJack wrote: post #37

I found the following review of the book interesting. I always like to read the "negative" reviews of something because I find it easier to make a decision whether to read something or buy something (books, software, food, etc...) based on whether I can identify with the negative comments or not. If someone has recommended something to me, and the negative comments are inconsequential to me (or absurd, etc...), I'm m…

I pretty much agree with this analysis, minus the dig against atheism. I haven't read Chomsky in detail, but this seems to be an accurate description of what he claims on the surface (e.g. in public interviews).

It seems likely that hatemongerers like Chomsky were an influence in leading to Aaron Schwarz's eventual suicide.

I apologize for the insensitivity towards Aaron here, but it seems worth saying.

Re: Aaron Swartz: The Book That Changed My Life

#54

Post by xk_id »

mtraven wrote: post #43
xk_id wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, didn't he criticise scientific epistemologies in relation to so-called scientism? I read briefly about some of his remarks on the matter, and he just seemed like most of his fellow sociologists: ignorant of the relevance of science to sanity, probably caused by not having been trained in physico-mathematical rigour.

That might win the prize for most ignorant comment ever on HN. While you can level a number of criticisms at Chomsky, lack of mathematical rigor is not one of them. I would assume people here were If anything, Chomsky is guilty of over-reliance on mathematical formalism in his linguistics.

well, there is absolutely nothing wrong with conjecturing, when one presents it as such. Thanks for making a case against what I said, I may give Chomsky a second chance.

Edit: by the way, I'm a bit suspicious of your phrasing in "mathematical formalism in his linguistics". Mathematical verbalism does not qualify as sane. I know a case of a person who does speak as a mathematician (very convincing!), even uses mathematics in his expositions, yet he is completely insane and what he says makes no sense whatsoever. I can share a recording of one of his lectures if you wish, but unfortunately he speaks in Romanian.

Re: Aaron Swartz: The Book That Changed My Life

#55

Post by hackerblues »

Yaa101 wrote: post #26
merinid wrote: post #2

The extent to which Chomsky has remained relevant in both political and scientific arenas never ceases to amaze me.

What never cease to amaze me and fascinates me is how people can rationalize away simple concept like: When the public pays for knowledge to be created, it should be that the public owns the knowledge it paid for, of all people Americans should live this truth. But no, the majority really thinks that a small elite has the right to usurp this knowledge not paid by them and let the public that paid for it, pay more and…

The public's taxes also fund the military. Extending your principle to this case implies that the public owns the countries nuclear arsenal. Can you advise what this ownership should practically entail? Should I get access to the weapons? Should I be able to use them? Or am I limited to indirectly benefitting from their existence?

Re: Aaron Swartz: The Book That Changed My Life

#56

Post by xk_id »

Zimahl wrote: post #48

I remember vividly clutching at the door to my room, trying to hold on to something while the world spun around. Maybe I'm a bit too simple or pragmatic but I sincerely hope that this was simply hyperbole. If not, I think we might have an early glimpse into a special, yet troubled, mind. From a lot of things I've read about Mr. Swartz since his suicide, it doesn't seem like he was all that mentally stable.

indeed...

Re: Aaron Swartz: The Book That Changed My Life

#57

Post by javert »

fghh45sdfhr3 wrote: post #49
DigitalJack wrote: post #37

I found the following review of the book interesting. I always like to read the "negative" reviews of something because I find it easier to make a decision whether to read something or buy something (books, software, food, etc...) based on whether I can identify with the negative comments or not. If someone has recommended something to me, and the negative comments are inconsequential to me (or absurd, etc...), I'm m…

His presumption here is that if the United States changes its behavior, that terrorist attacks will then cease. Islamic terrorists, in fact, want a pan-world government under Talibanesque repressive sharia law, a vision that mandates the overthrow of all free nations beginning with ours. First, It is not the US's fault it got attacked, Gandhi changed British foreign policy with peaceful protests. The terrorists chose…

The analysis of Islamic terrorism in the Amazon review is not wrong. Nor is it wrong to say that Bin Laden explicitly blamed his 9/11 attack on US foreign policy in the Middle East. They are both true and compatible.

Chomsky presumes that the US and US foreign policy are evil, when in fact the US is good and US foreign policy is often seriously mistaken (but not evil), with occasional evil individuals in leadership and non-leadership positions.

So, Chomsky is wrong, and he does demonize the US and US foreign policy.

And "we may soon lose our nation" is not at all wrong. The US government conducts constant surveillance on practically all citizens, as I imagine you're aware of, and Obama is trying to violate the Second Amendment of the Constitution (which he clearly has no respect for) using executive orders. At what point is freedom "lost"? In principle, a long time ago. From here on out, it's just a slippery slope.

I say this as an atheist, so I agree with you that Chomsky being an atheist has nothing to do with anything.

Re: Aaron Swartz: The Book That Changed My Life

#58

Post by cynicalkane »

fghh45sdfhr3 wrote: post #49
DigitalJack wrote: post #37

I found the following review of the book interesting. I always like to read the "negative" reviews of something because I find it easier to make a decision whether to read something or buy something (books, software, food, etc...) based on whether I can identify with the negative comments or not. If someone has recommended something to me, and the negative comments are inconsequential to me (or absurd, etc...), I'm m…

His presumption here is that if the United States changes its behavior, that terrorist attacks will then cease. Islamic terrorists, in fact, want a pan-world government under Talibanesque repressive sharia law, a vision that mandates the overthrow of all free nations beginning with ours. First, It is not the US's fault it got attacked, Gandhi changed British foreign policy with peaceful protests. The terrorists chose…

It's telling that you are supporting a person who thinks governments routinely lie, then you auto-assume that anything Bin Laden says is a representative of the entire motivating ideology of all terrorism.

The spirit of modern political analysis is to judge organizations as they do, not as they say through a mouthpiece. Terrorists don't get a free pass on this. The activity of Al-Qaeda and similar organizations in places like Iraq and Afghanistan and Pakistan seems, to my eye, not oriented around fighting global capitalist oppressors or that sort of first-world ivory tower nonsense, but oriented around killing a lot of people who don't believe what they believe.

Re: Aaron Swartz: The Book That Changed My Life

#59

Post by chernevik »

"Reading the book, I felt as if my mind was rocked by explosions."

If you've only had this experience from _one_ book, you aren't reading enough.

"Questions that had puzzled me for years suddenly began making sense in this new world."

If, on reading a book, you don't know of at least one other set of alternative answers, you aren't reading enough.

No doubt Chomsky is a powerful and persuasive writer. But there are many thought-systems of similar extraordinary explanatory power. At some point you have to realize that the ones that hit you, hit because you share their basic premises and took the time to understand the explication of the thought-system. Without the ability to identify and examine those premises, your thinking is more an accident of which powerful system clicked with you first.

You have to read enough to intelligently criticize those opinions you hold most dear and believe most certainly. It's very hard. The "terrifying side effect" of being "left all alone" is not quite so terrifying as the gut-wrenching feeling you don't actually know _anything_.

It is an amazing and wonderful and terrifying experience to see the world in a new way. But you cannot stop at _that_ new way of thinking.

Re: Aaron Swartz: The Book That Changed My Life

#60

Post by jacquesm »

rdtsc wrote: post #38
jacquesm wrote: post #3

Chomsky is one of the most eloquent people that I've ever come across. Manufacturing consent and Understanding power are indeed life changing books. They are in the sense that after reading them you will look at the media and politics in a new way and that that way will never leave you. It's like putting on glasses when you didn't know you needed them.

Completely agree. I didn't before. I come from a strict conservative and authoritarian background where glorification of the state (as long as it was run by the Christians) was the default assumption. Someone pointed Chomsky to me. I read some. I think it was Failed State or Manufacturing Consent. And thought, well, surely this is all liberal commy bullshit. Except for one little problem -- Chomsky seemed to have tho…

I really have to congratulate you, I've personally found breaking free from the defaults set at birth to be nigh on impossible. It's incredible how deep some of those hooks have been sunk and it gets me every time I discover a new one. It looks like there is no end to them.
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